Grosse Fuga

[camden]

Forgive me if I am repeating something that has no doubt been discussed before here, but I'm new on the block:

Am I the only person in the universe who prefers the substitute finale to the fuga for op.130?

I listened to it again last night, and I still think it just sounds bad....it's always so out of tune!! Hold on critics... I know that would initially be seen to be a result of performers, but actually I don't think it is. I have yet to hear a performance that sounds vaguely decent. I think B made a severe miscalculation in what he thought string instruments could do: i.e. play that kind of chromatic music in tune. That's a compositional fault, not the fault of performers. Maybe that's why he replaced it.

Any thoughts?

[Peter]

I agree that the current finale works better (something obviously recognised by Beethoven), but I don't agree about the Grosse fugue which admittedly is probably one of the most difficult pieces to listen to Beethoven ever wrote - it really is an incredible piece, so revolutionary that a critic of 1826 referred to it as 'incomprehensible as Chinese. Monstrous difficulties.. music to please the inhabitants of Morocco.'! It took me many many hearings to appreciate this piece myself, but it is worth perservering with. Beethoven apparently showed no pleasure at the applause afforded the two scherzo movements at a complete performance of the work and was indignant at the lack of appreciation for the fugue.

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'Man know thyself'

[camden]

I have studied the work a lot in the past. But although I always thought it was awsome when reading through it in score - it sounded great "on paper" if that makes sense - but was always perplexed (or cringing rather) through recordings and performances.

Can you reccommend a recording that is good, even "in tune"?

If you like it so much, why do you prefer the other finale for the quartet...is it just too big do you think?(by the way, I just remembered that B Cooper argues for the substitute finale in the quartet)

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
Forgive me if I am repeating something that has no doubt been discussed before here, but I'm new on the block:

Am I the only person in the universe who prefers the substitute finale to the fuga for op.130?

I listened to it again last night, and I still think it just sounds bad....it's always so out of tune!! Hold on critics... I know that would initially be seen to be a result of performers, but actually I don't think it is. I have yet to hear a performance that sounds vaguely decent. I think B made a severe miscalculation in what he thought string instruments could do: i.e. play that kind of chromatic music in tune. That's a compositional fault, not the fault of performers. Maybe that's why he replaced it.

Any thoughts?

We have discussed virtually everything here before! I often literally repeat myself - heck, like a good tune, if it's good once, its good twice....or thrice...

I too have come to the opinion that things are best as Beethoven finaly left them, though I have no real problem if someone uses the fugue as the finale. I suggest your 'out of tune' fugue is indeed due to out of tune playing. Performers tend to go a little over the top and play too forcefully, and sometimes this results in dodgy intonation - a factor further worsened by dodgy vibrato! the solution as always is to return the period techniques and instruments (no appologies here folks), where such exaggerated performances would not be possible. Yet to hear such a performance however. I think he replaced it because its size and nature was somewhat out of context with the rest of the quartet, though it does follow well after the Cavatina. He certainly would not have thought any fault lay in the composition of the fugue - if anything he thought it was the best movment!!

With regard to the replacement finale I think it is a very underrated piece, I like it alot, especially the wonderful cantabile subject.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

I find it weird that you suggest period performance here when all reports suggest that in Beethoven's time no one could even play this piece!

[Rutradelusasa]

I liked this piece the ifrst time I listened to it, on a not-so-good recording by Otto Klemperer, who used a string orchestra (no double basses though) to perform it. As many of B's compositions, this includes also the wonderful mass in D - that's why many prefer the mass in C, you must listen a bit and study a bit to understand it. Even though, I like the fuga, never heard the other ending

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
I find it weird that you suggest period performance here when all reports suggest that in Beethoven's time no one could even play this piece!

On the contrary, it was performed in Beethoven's lifetime. He complained that it was not encored! You may find my suggestion wierd, nevertheless it happens to be correct.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-08-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I liked this piece the ifrst time I listened to it, on a not-so-good recording by Otto Klemperer, who used a string orchestra (no double basses though) to perform it.

Any performance of the orchestral version of the fugue is not so good!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest your 'out of tune' fugue is indeed due to out of tune playing.

I couldn't resist

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 03-08-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:

I couldn't resist

I fail to see the significance of this with regard to my earlier comment. However, beware Chris, I've got plenty of graphics myself, and those who live by the sword die by the sword!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

"I suggest your 'out of tune' fugue is indeed due to out of tune playing."

Just read it a few times! It's funny! But perhaps I am merely a little weird now, since I've been awake for more than 72 hours.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 03-08-2002).]

[Joy]

CHRIS,

Go get some much needed rest!! Sleep tight and good night!!

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Chris:


I couldn't resist

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 03-08-2002).]

LOL!!!!!!! Ridiculous humour at its best!!!