3rd Piano Concerto
I have only recently started listening to the 3rd and 4th piano concertos with any attention, and something has been niggling at me each time I hear the second movement of the 3rd: do I (twice) detect a brief echo from Mozart's Laudate Dominum? There's even the trill Kiri te Kanawa does so beautifully! Is this my imagination, or am I betraying my woeful ignorance as a layman having stumbled on to a fact that's well known and widely commented on? Either way I'm intrigued.
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I think that could be possible as Mozart was undoubtedly very much already in B's mind when he wrote this conc. The theme of the first movement (octave ascending c minor arpeggio in march-like rhythm) is almost blatent plagerised from M's C-minor concerto. Also the use of piano in the coda of that movement (one of my favourite movements in Beethoven full stop!)was a device typical of M's mature concertos. And there is some documented statement to the effect that B was very envious of the theme of the last mov of M's C-minor conc.
As four the fourth, well I think that's the finest of them all. Solo piano in G major followed immediately by orchestral response in B major...where the hell did he come up with that?....genius!camden reeves -
I'm not sure what you mean - as far as I'm aware the Beethoven coda is one of the first in a concerto to keep the pianist going right to the very end of a first movement, and surely the use of timpani here is highly original?Originally posted by camden:
Also the use of piano in the coda of that movement (one of my favourite movements in Beethoven full stop!)was a device typical of M's mature concertos.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Magical indeed and perhaps the idea came from the 1802 Bagatelle Op.33 no.3 where he drops the theme from F down a third to D without modulation.Originally posted by camden:
As four the fourth, well I think that's the finest of them all. Solo piano in G major followed immediately by orchestral response in B major...where the hell did he come up with that?....genius!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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I believe in Classical times the pianist, being also the director, played 'continuo' throughout (Beethoven included), I suspect that the soloist may have struck the final chord along with the orchestra long before B indicated this in his score?Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not sure what you mean - as far as I'm aware the Beethoven coda is one of the first in a concerto to keep the pianist going right to the very end of a first movement, and surely the use of timpani here is highly original?
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Mozart's E flat conc. K271 was the first concerto to introduce piano in both the introductory orchestral tutti and the coda of the first movement, I am pretty sure this model formed the basis for B's concerto strategy as he is known to have studied Mozart's concertos and to have liked them. (compare this to the Emperor conc for example)
Have a listen to 1st movt. of Mozart c minor K467. The piano indeed does enter in coda of first novement and plays arpeggios (much like the Beethoven) until the end.
What I think is original in Beethoven's c minor conc is that the piano proceeds directly from the cadenza into the coda, and is ingenius (using a diminished harmony to maintain the suspense generated by the cadenza). The same think happens in the Emporer concerto....even more brilliantly!
camden reevesComment
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Originally posted by camden:
Have a listen to 1st movt. of Mozart c minor K467. The piano indeed does enter in coda of first novement and plays arpeggios (much like the Beethoven) until the end.
Regardless, Op. 37 is a far more impressive work in general, yes?
I've always thought of that part as looking far, far ahead to...sorry...jazz. It just hits me as 'jazzy'. I don't know how else to describe it, I know 'jazzy' isn't correct, but there it is. (Help the uneducated-in-music-layman?) That almost funky minor stuff. My favorite of the whole concerto.
What I think is original in Beethoven's c minor conc is that the piano proceeds directly from the cadenza into the coda, and is ingenius (using a diminished harmony to maintain the suspense generated by the cadenza). The same think happens in the Emporer concerto....even more brilliantly!
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K.271 was the first to open with the soloist, but the effect is nothing like as startling as in B's 4th or the Emperor! You're right about the ending of the Mozart C minor (which Beethoven admired above all others by Mozart - again revealing his sound musical judgement as even today this is regarded as one of the greatest of Mozart's concertos)- however unlike the Beethoven 3rd, there is a break for the piano between the cadenza and the final passage.Originally posted by camden:
Mozart's E flat conc. K271 was the first concerto to introduce piano in both the introductory orchestral tutti and the coda of the first movement, I am pretty sure this model formed the basis for B's concerto strategy as he is known to have studied Mozart's concertos and to have liked them. (compare this to the Emperor conc for example)
Have a listen to 1st movt. of Mozart c minor K467. The piano indeed does enter in coda of first novement and plays arpeggios (much like the Beethoven) until the end.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Well, of course. Beethoven completely re-invented the coda. Before Beethoven, these were mostly short passages to bring a movement neatly to a close, mostly re-enforcing the tonic cadence. Even in certain Mozart concs. they sound "tacked on" to me (although not in the very best ones, such as the c minor). Beethoven transformed the coda into a second development - with new harmonic and thematic "adventures", dramatically fused with the rest of the movement. Indeed, you often feel (in 3rd, 5th, 9th symphonies for well-known examples)the structural weight of the movement has been leaning towards it from the start.
This concerto is no exception, even if the coda here is short by Beethoven's standards.camden reevesComment
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