Leonard Bernstein on Brahms Symphony #4

[susanwen]

I found this wonderful critique of Brahms Symphony #4 by Bernstein. This is part one, and there are links to the other four parts. The whole thing runs about an hour - this first segment is about 10 minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXo2Ab_KFsE

[Peter]

Good to see you here again Susanwen - thanks for the link, unfortunately it will have to wait till the new year for me when I get a new PC - this one keeps crashing each time I try to watch Youtube!

[gprengel]

Dear Susan, thank you for this remarkable introduction into this great symphony. I hardly can believe that this symphony was received with so little understanding and appreciation in the time of Brahms. This is the peak of his work! I just listened to all the clips from Bernstein's lecture - wonderful, I just love Bernstein's passion and insight for music!
But regarding interpretation of this symphony I must say that greatest performance is not from Bernstein but the one from Carlos Kleiber with the Vienna Phil. - just outstanding!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxB5vkZy7nM

[susanwen]

I lost this website when yahoo erased all my bookmarks. I am very happy to be back. This forum is a real joy to me.
- Susan

[Albert Gans]

I found this on you tube (i have this on a CBS record): Bernstein on the 5th
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1klmXUER8

[susanwen]

very nice! Thank you, Albert Gans!

[Humoresque]

I found this wonderful critique of Brahms Symphony #4 by Bernstein. This is part one, and there are links to the other four parts. The whole thing runs about an hour - this first segment is about 10 minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXo2Ab_KFsE

I've just found this!! It is absolutely magnificent. Bernstein was the pedagogue par excellence; and a musicological raconteur. He unlocks the mysteries of this magnificent of all symphonies (alongside Beethoven!). In fact, I can barely listen to a bar of it without being brought to my knees - particularly when I've heard criticism of Brahms from his contemporaries.

Brahms understood how melodic line, as opposed to motivic fragments, actually mitigates against symphonic architectural development. He complained once to Dvorak (when discussing that composer's symphonies), 'why don't you stop writing those folk tunes'! He was trying to tell Dvorak that melodies actually don't lend themselves to more conventional symphonic development in the way that melodic fragments do!! Bernstein explains this very coherently. And I love the way he explains the "characters" in the symphony, as though all was narrative (which I have long believed it to be).

For me, Brahms put an end to symphonic form by perfecting it. His 4 symphonies were the apotheosis, IMO. Beethoven changed the landscape with his 9th but Brahms returned to classical models, as we all know. What followed after Brahms was a series of large scale tone poems (yes, even Shostakovich). That classical symmetry and intense, molecular development is the bedrock of symphonic form. And Johannes Brahms used a combination of lush and tender romanticism with a granitic structure.

[Peter]

I've just found this!! It is absolutely magnificent. Bernstein was the pedagogue par excellence; and a musicological raconteur. He unlocks the mysteries of this magnificent of all symphonies (alongside Beethoven!). In fact, I can barely listen to a bar of it without being brought to my knees - particularly when I've heard criticism of Brahms from his contemporaries.

Brahms understood how melodic line, as opposed to motivic fragments, actually mitigates against symphonic architectural development. He complained once to Dvorak (when discussing that composer's symphonies), 'why don't you stop writing those folk tunes'! He was trying to tell Dvorak that melodies actually don't lend themselves to more conventional symphonic development in the way that melodic fragments do!! Bernstein explains this very coherently. And I love the way he explains the "characters" in the symphony, as though all was narrative (which I have long believed it to be).

For me, Brahms put an end to symphonic form by perfecting it. His 4 symphonies were the apotheosis, IMO. Beethoven changed the landscape with his 9th but Brahms returned to classical models, as we all know. What followed after Brahms was a series of large scale tone poems (yes, even Shostakovich). That classical symmetry and intense, molecular development is the bedrock of symphonic form. And Johannes Brahms used a combination of lush and tender romanticism with a granitic structure.

Whilst agreeing with your admiration of Brahms I don't agree he put an end to the symphonic form by 'perfecting it' - I think each great composer has perfected it in his own way but if you mean took it to it's ultimate conclusion then I'd say Sibelius went further. This from wikipedia:

Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with a finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.

[Humoresque]

That's what I meant about Brahms...the 'ultimate conclusion'. That last word is key for me. (I also have similar ideas with regard to the piano concerto - not specifically those by Brahms - as a largely outdated form!)

(I have problems with Wiki and issues of 'authority' and accuracy. As a resource it's a starting point and not an end in itself.) The comment about Sibelius does seem logical and reasonable, but I'd have to consult my own reference books and do more listening before contributing further. However, I am still inclined to the view that Sibelius is coming from the tone poem aesthetic I've alluded to in my earlier comments. He did compose such specific works himself ("Finlandia" etc.). I greatly love and admire the work of Sibelius (having heard his Violin concerto played twice last year - in both the Leipzig Gewandhaus and Amsterdam Concertgebouw by Leonidas Kavakos). Perhaps the perfect trope for what I'm trying to express is "economy"; and I just don't hear that in Sibelius, but I'll listen again in light of what you've said and return for further comment. But I appreciate your observations.

I have Charles Rosen's "The Romantic Generation" and will consult that again for any clues, even though negotiating Rosen's prose is rather like wading through chewing gum!

[Peter]

I agree we shouldn't rely entirely on wikipedia but this is a view of his creative process I'm familiar with. Interesting your remark about 'economy' is exactly what I do hear in Sibelius - compare his last 2 symphonies to those of say Mahler or the later tone poems of Strauss. Indeed in the 7th he takes things a step further and integrates the form into one concise 23 minute movement!

[Humoresque]

Interesting your remark about 'economy' is exactly what I do hear in Sibelius - compare his last 2 symphonies to those of say Mahler or the later tone poems of Strauss. Indeed in the 7th he takes things a step further and integrates the form into one concise 23 minute movement!

You've certainly aroused my interest and enthusiasm! I will certainly listen to those symphonies you've recommended. Thanks.

[Michael]

Brahms understood how melodic line, as opposed to motivic fragments, actually mitigates against symphonic architectural development. He complained once to Dvorak (when discussing that composer's symphonies), 'why don't you stop writing those folk tunes'! He was trying to tell Dvorak that melodies actually don't lend themselves to more conventional symphonic development in the way that melodic fragments do!!

I think the phrase "melodic fragments" describes Beethoven's technique in a nutshell (and Brahms's too).
It might also explain why some people accuse Beethoven of lacking melody in his compositions and, at the same time, revere him for his lyricism. Bernstein in "The Joy of Music" doesn't hesitate to describe Beethoven as the greatest composer of all but (and I am paraphrasing wildly here) "just don't try to whistle any of his symphonic movements."

[Humoresque]

Precisely!! I love that both composers compress their ideas into the most efficient expression. That's what I've been driving at with my comments about musical "economy". But I also take Peter's point about the Sibelius symphonies and will listen carefully and do some extra reading. I have Schoenberg's "Style and Idea: Selected Writings" on my bookcase which I'll read in tandem with the Rosen. Schoenberg has things to say about Brahms, which I'll have to extrapolate for my argument about the latter composer having effectively brought an end to the symphony through his perfection and mastery of it (after LvB, of course).

In fact, Beethoven's 9th is problematic for me because of its structure; those first 3 movements are dynamite, but the last...well, less is more. I don't like the human voice in symphonies, just as a starting point. Then there is Beethoven's use of "thematic transformation" in that last movement which doesn't seem consistent (to me) with the motivic development of the other movements. One of the things which I admire in the classical symphony is its expositional nature and the means composers use to develop the 'essay'. If that tension isn't there then this might explain my preference for Beethoven and Brahms, Haydn and (late) Mozart - for whom this was front and centre in their musical thinking, which then translates into a visceral experience for the listener. Once a composer starts 'meandering' in a symphony my ears wander and my eyes glaze over. I want the tension and drama. Simple as that.

And, like Bernstein, I've found it useful to think broadly in terms of literature when it comes to serious music!!