7th symphonie, 2nd movement.

[Rutradelusasa]

I get pissed of that no one has already changed the tempo from Allegretto to Andante, as Beethoven himself asked.
What do you people think of it?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I get pissed of that no one has already changed the tempo from Allegretto to Andante, as Beethoven himself asked.
What do you people think of it?

if you go to the Symphonies page of this site I discuss this point myself. The story comes from Schindler so there is a chance S was using Beethoven to voice his own opinions, but regardless there is validity to the point. Certainly the piece is not a typical Beethoven allegretto. On the other hand it is not really a typical andante either, although the underlying march-like rhythm is something one would associate with andante and not allegretto. Early reviews of performances referred to the piece as andante or adagio, this says something in itself. 'Andante con moto, quasi allegretto' would perhaps be a more helpful indication of the works nature.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-04-2002).]

[camden]

You assume that (even if there is credence to Schindler's claim)Beethoven's tempo suggestion of Andante has authority (in the literal sense of the word)over an evolved performance tradition insisting on Allegretto. (Just because he fathered the child, does not mean his original wishes should forever dominate it's future development.)...Is it a matter of right and wrong, or mere personal preference? Also, do you suppose Beethoven had only one intention for the work, or was his suggestion of Andante an alternative reading?

Personally I like the fact that a tradition evolves around the performance of a piece, that many individuals contribute to it's developing identity...developing and finding new meaning in different cultural contexts. I am disturbed by the idea of one, correct interpretation. That sort of attitude belies museum artifacts sat collecting dusk, not powerful living and breathing musical statements such as this.

Furthermore, if a performance at Andante were to happen I would much prefer it arose out of the musical imperitives of the performer(s)creativity than sterile textbook evidence (although this doesn't mitigate against the latter lending inspiration to the former!).

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
You assume that (even if there is credence to Schindler's claim)Beethoven's tempo suggestion of Andante has authority (in the literal sense of the word)over an evolved performance tradition insisting on Allegretto. (Just because he fathered the child, does not mean his original wishes should forever dominate it's future development.)...Is it a matter of right and wrong, or mere personal preference? Also, do you suppose Beethoven had only one intention for the work, or was his suggestion of Andante an alternative reading?

Personally I like the fact that a tradition evolves around the performance of a piece, that many individuals contribute to it's developing identity...developing and finding new meaning in different cultural contexts. I am disturbed by the idea of one, correct interpretation. That sort of attitude belies museum artifacts sat collecting dusk, not powerful living and breathing musical statements such as this.

Furthermore, if a performance at Andante were to happen I would much prefer it arose out of the musical imperitives of the performer(s)creativity than sterile textbook evidence (although this doesn't mitigate against the latter lending inspiration to the former!).

Beethoven's word certainly has authority over subsequest performance tradition. The trouble is judging his word when the source is Schindler. 'Performance tradition' at the time saw the piece performed at what the critics judged to be andante or adagio. Even today it is certainly not performed in a manner I would judge to be typically allegretto - you usually get quite broad interpretations, too broad in my view - virtually largo! Given that Beethoven issued metronome marks and was annoyed at frequent misinterpretations as he saw it, this would imply he had, to a large degree, a fixed interpretation in mind.

I for one am not interested nor impressed when a performer puts his/her own stamp on a piece (which can be carried as far as the insertion of extra notes!) and this can happen as much with 'period' perfomances as with any other.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

I would agree that Beethoven, perhaps the most notably autocratic of composers, had a fixed interpretation in mind. What I question is the extent to which performers should allow that to dictate their own interpretations.

I would also point out that composers are not always the best interpreters of their own music. Peter Maxwell Davies, for example, writes 5/8 metres but conducts them in 3/4 (ie. with an extra quaver), which is weird, but confuses the issue of the composers authority. Do you follow the printed score or what he himself does? Chopin is known to have taken rubato in his Mazurkas to the point of altering the notated metre. In La Cathedrale Engloutie" Debussy writes no tempo change for the second main section, but a piano role recording reveals him doubling the tempo. These are just a few examples. Here's a really weird one: I prefer Boulez's recording of THe Rite of Spring than Stravinsky's own recordings. What's weird is that Stravinsky departs from his own highly specific score where as Boulez follows it ruthlessly. So Boulez is doing Stravinsky's version, but then of course so is Stravinsky.

Whether or not Beethoven's interpretations of his own music were likely to depart from his notated scores or written comments, one can of course only speculate. But I can think of very few living composers who don't change their interpretations of their own work.

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
I would agree that Beethoven, perhaps the most notably autocratic of composers, had a fixed interpretation in mind. What I question is the extent to which performers should allow that to dictate their own interpretations.

I would also point out that composers are not always the best interpreters of their own music. Peter Maxwell Davies, for example, writes 5/8 metres but conducts them in 3/4 (ie. with an extra quaver), which is weird, but confuses the issue of the composers authority. Do you follow the printed score or what he himself does? Chopin is known to have taken rubato in his Mazurkas to the point of altering the notated metre. In La Cathedrale Engloutie" Debussy writes no tempo change for the second main section, but a piano role recording reveals him doubling the tempo. These are just a few examples. Here's a really weird one: I prefer Boulez's recording of THe Rite of Spring than Stravinsky's own recordings. What's weird is that Stravinsky departs from his own highly specific score where as Boulez follows it ruthlessly. So Boulez is doing Stravinsky's version, but then of course so is Stravinsky.

Whether or not Beethoven's interpretations of his own music were likely to depart from his notated scores or written comments, one can of course only speculate. But I can think of very few living composers who don't change their interpretations of their own work.

Well, with the piano music there are of course instances when the pedal should be used but it is not indicated in the score, so here the performers intuition comes into play, as B would have expected. There is more than one account of a piece of his that was played not quite in the manner he expected, yet it met with his approval. But Beethoven is not around to judge today, so anything which blatantly contradicts the score should not be considered - it's all too often the thin end of the wedge. With regard to Stravinsky and Debussy I'm not too concerned since for me they fall into the 'rubbish composers' category.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

Well, I don't want to get into an argument concerning the merits of Stravinsky or Debussy as composers, as obviously this is a Beethoven page. But I would be interested to know what this "rubbish composer" category is. Is that simply your own terminology for music you don't happen to like? And are there any composers it doesn't include, apart from Beethoven that is?

By the way, I am personally only interested in performers who DO put something of themselves into the music. Otherwise, what's the point of it? ... We might as well just listen to computers playing the music.

(No doubt you must find G Gould's interpretations of Beethoven truly abhorant to your sensibilities.)

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
.

(No doubt you must find G Gould's interpretations of Beethoven truly abhorant to your sensibilities.)

I have a recording of B variations where G does indeed add that extra personal element - namely his voice. It was the first and last G recording I bought.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-07-2002).]

[camden]

I agree...his singing sucks!

Try his recording of Bach's Inventions. He deliberately uses a broken piano, and then uses the sleeve note to justity why a broken piano is better than any other. He was a wierdo!

His recording of Beethoven's 5th symphony (Liszt transcription) is even weirder. He says in the sleeve note there that he plays the music in such as way as to expose how awful and "immoral" it is, referring to the conflict between masculine and femine themes. Yes, he definitely should have changed his medication more often!

Have said all this.......he is my favourite pianist.

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
I agree...his singing sucks!

Try his recording of Bach's Inventions. He deliberately uses a broken piano, and then uses the sleeve note to justity why a broken piano is better than any other. He was a wierdo!

His recording of Beethoven's 5th symphony (Liszt transcription) is even weirder. He says in the sleeve note there that he plays the music in such as way as to expose how awful and "immoral" it is, referring to the conflict between masculine and femine themes. Yes, he definitely should have changed his medication more often!

Have said all this.......he is my favourite pianist.

Funny you mention this particular piano, as the one he used in the recording I mention has the worst sound I have ever heard. I though it may have been a flaw in the recording, but now I suspect it could have been the piano itself!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

In fact, this piano (not the pianist, the piano itself!!!) has a cult following would you believe! I think it's even in a museum in Toronto, or somewhere now. To be fair, the piano had a wonderful sound in G's early recordings (50s) but then someone dropped it out of the back of a truck. Gould was so dedicated to it he couldn't bring himself to let it go....like an old sick dog it would have been more merciful to have shot it I suppose.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have a recording of B variations where G does indeed add that extra personal element - namely his voice. It was the first and last G recording I bought.

I saw that G's recording of B variations on video and I couldn't believe he was humming out loud with the music. He played several other B pieces in the video and did the same
thing throughout. I never saw anything like it. He certainly had a style all his own.

Joy