Tempo
Before we were discussing the many different tempos of music performed by different conductors. For example, Eroica being shorter on certain recordings than others or when you hear it performed in concert. Can anyone tell me why the conductors never seem to follow the music tempos exactly as the composers have written it? Is it because they want to put their own 'fingerprint' on the music so to speak? Does any conductor ever follow the music exactly as it was written?
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'Truth and beauty joined' -
With regard to Beethoven his metronome and even the Italian tempo indications are routinely ignored because or the simple arrogance and ignorance of the musical establishment. Conductors like to put their own stamp on a production. Too often the audience are more interested in the performer/s and conductor than the music anyway - they have their darlings. I for one don't care who is playing, I'm only there in the naive hope that the music is performed as Beethoven asks!Originally posted by Joy:
...Does any conductor ever follow the music exactly as it was written?
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-15-2002).] -
I thoroughly agree! Just once I would like to go to a concert where the tempo, etc. is exactly how the composer wrote it. I'm going to another concert on Sat. night but I know it will not be performed as written. I do love the live performances however, as there's nothing quite like hearing it live.Originally posted by Rod:
With regard to Beethoven his metronome and even the Italian tempo indications are routinely ignored because or the simple arrogance and ignorance of the musical establishment. Conductors like to put their own stamp on a production. Too often the audience are more interested in the performer/s and conductor than the music anyway - they have their darlings. I for one don't care who is playing, I'm only there in the naive hope that the music is performed as Beethoven asks!
'Truth and beauty joined'Comment
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Tempo is generally a speed range, not an absolute number. Now I admit to not having seen many original Beethoven scores, but for the most part composers indicate speed with an Italian word. I will attach a list from another site that has all commonly used tempo markings. As an example though Allegro means quick & spirited. Just how fast is quick and spirited ? It's a range of 108-120 beats per minute. Where in that range a piece is played is the conducters decision. Sometimes composers will specify an exact speed by placing a symbol like this at the top of the composition instead of or in addition to the word Allegro. MM=115 They are removing the interpretation by saying they want it at exactly 115 beats per minute. I do not believe Beethoven specified exact speeds.
Steve
For tempo definitions see :
http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/definitions.html
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Thanks very much, Steve, that helps a lot and the websight you pointed me too is excellent! I've added it to my favourites!'Truth and beauty joined'Comment
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The music must be always amongst the interpreter.Comment
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Beethoven indicated more 'spirited' speeds in Italian than any composer I can think of, not just allegro, I mean allegro con brio or allegro assai or vivace or presto. These are indicated everywhere. Yet the standard speed performed for these movements is something typically a little slower than moderato! And then people complain about pieces going on too long, and repeats get removed! Metronome numbers can be construed as an exact speed in my book, though from a letter it appears Beethoven used them as an indicator for the first few bars - upon which the remainder can be judged in proportion, as the music allows.Originally posted by SR:
Tempo is generally a speed range, not an absolute number. Now I admit to not having seen many original Beethoven scores, but for the most part composers indicate speed with an Italian word. I will attach a list from another site that has all commonly used tempo markings. As an example though Allegro means quick & spirited. Just how fast is quick and spirited ? It's a range of 108-120 beats per minute. Where in that range a piece is played is the conducters decision. Sometimes composers will specify an exact speed by placing a symbol like this at the top of the composition instead of or in addition to the word Allegro. MM=115 They are removing the interpretation by saying they want it at exactly 115 beats per minute. I do not believe Beethoven specified exact speeds.
Steve
For tempo definitions see :
http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/definitions.html
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Originally posted by SR:
Tempo is generally a speed range, not an absolute number. Now I admit to not having seen many original Beethoven scores, but for the most part composers indicate speed with an Italian word. I will attach a list from another site that has all commonly used tempo markings. As an example though Allegro means quick & spirited. Just how fast is quick and spirited ? It's a range of 108-120 beats per minute. Where in that range a piece is played is the conducters decision. Sometimes composers will specify an exact speed by placing a symbol like this at the top of the composition instead of or in addition to the word Allegro. MM=115 They are removing the interpretation by saying they want it at exactly 115 beats per minute. I do not believe Beethoven specified exact speeds.
Steve
Nor is it reasonable in certain situations to exactly use a tempo indicated by a composer. If, for example, a composition is performed in an outside environement, or in a concert hall the tempo will have to be adjusted based on the acoustical arrangement to be more effective. A less acoustically agreeing environement will tend to need faster tempos per performance than will otherwise.Comment
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>>>Metronome numbers can be construed as an exact speed in my book, though from a letter it appears Beethoven used them as an indicator for the first few bars - upon which the remainder can be judged in proportion, as the music allows.<<<<
Metronome numbers ARE an exact speed, but I don't believe Beethoven ever used them. I am by no means an expert on his autographs and if I am wrong here would love to be directed to a place where I could see Beethoven using a marking like MM=115, specifing 115 beats per minute for a movement. I have no knowledge of conductors playing movements marked Allegro, Vivace or Presto at a Moderato pace. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I would be surprised. Next time I pull out some B I'll also pull out the metronome and see.
Regards
Steve
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I can assure you that Beethoven DID leave some metronome indications - for all the symphonies, the Hammerklavier sonata, Christus am Oelberge, and I think the Razumovsky quartets, maybe there are more. But they are routinely ignored. the problem not only concern allegro movments but all movements - when you get renditions of the 9th adagio that range from between 10.5 and 20 mins you will understand my point!Originally posted by SR:
Metronome numbers ARE an exact speed, but I don't believe Beethoven ever used them. I am by no means an expert on his autographs and if I am wrong here would love to be directed to a place where I could see Beethoven using a marking like MM=115, specifing 115 beats per minute for a movement. I have no knowledge of conductors playing movements marked Allegro, Vivace or Presto at a Moderato pace. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I would be surprised. Next time I pull out some B I'll also pull out the metronome and see.
Regards
Steve
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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This is getting more and more frustrating!
Joy'Truth and beauty joined'Comment
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Certainly he did! One of his very last letters dated 18th March 1827 to Moschelles in London concerns the metronome markings for the 9th Symphony. In a joint public statement with Salieri to the Viennese press on 14th Feb 1818 Beethoven had recommended the use of the metronome.Originally posted by SR:
>>>Metronome numbers ARE an exact speed, but I don't believe Beethoven ever used them.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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For what it's worth I don't think these marks are all that necessary with Beethoven, the music is usually well enough described by the Italian. Any conductor worth his salt should know what produce of what Beethoven asks. Alas these days, as in Beethoven's time, how many conductors are worth even a pinch of salt? I'm certain it was Beethoven's frustration with the interpretations of his music that encouraged his favour of the metronome.Originally posted by Peter:
Certainly he did! One of his very last letters dated 18th March 1827 to Moschelles in London concerns the metronome markings for the 9th Symphony. In a joint public statement with Salieri to the Viennese press on 14th Feb 1818 Beethoven had recommended the use of the metronome.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-21-2002).]Comment
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Originally posted by Rod:
For what it's worth I don't think these marks are all that necessary with Beethoven, the music is usually well enough described by the Italian. Any conductor worth his salt should know what produce of what Beethoven asks. Alas these days, as in Beethoven's time, how many conductors are worth even a pinch of salt? I'm certain it was Beethoven's frustration with the interpretations of his music that encouraged his favour of the metronome.
And still the conductors, etc. don't follow the 'directions' to the exact markings. I can imagine how frustrating that would be to the composers unless they themselves are doing the conducting.
'Truth and beauty joined'Comment
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Pardon the quote above; it appears that the message I chose to reply to got changed on me. However, what I want to say is that according to Kenneth Drake (instructional book regarding the playing of the B Sonatas according to the way he played and taught them) B only left precise metrenome markings for Op. 106. There are sets of markings given by Czerny and Moscheles, who were contemporaries of B. Czerny even has two sets from a decade apart. So who knows?Originally posted by Rod:
For what it's worth I don't think these marks are all that necessary with Beethoven, the music is usually well enough described by the Italian. Any conductor worth his salt should know what produce of what Beethoven asks. Alas these days, as in Beethoven's time, how many conductors are worth even a pinch of salt? I'm certain it was Beethoven's frustration with the interpretations of his music that encouraged his favour of the metronome.
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