Hanover Band/Nimbus

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Then surely the authentic movement should recognise this and perform the concertos on a later fp, perhaps from the 1810's? Obviously Beethoven had no objection or he would hardly have written an unplayable cadenza.

I agree. You've just reminded me that Melvyn Tan did presicely that, he used a copy of an 1815 Streicher in his EMI recordings of concertos 1 & 2, and used B's cadenzas. I personally regard 'authentic' as using any Viennese fp that would have been available during B's lifetime. But I've heard of the B cadenzas for 1 and 2 being rejected on stylistic grounds even by 'authentic' performers.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[NickB]

Originally posted by Rod:

Ironically the Beethoven cadenzas for the first 2 concertos create a problem for the authentic movement, for I believe they require a keyboard beyond the 5 octave instrument B himeself would have used in the 1790s. Thus I have a few recordings with a 5 octave Walter, but none of them use Beethoven's cadenzas. I presume the fortepiano at the current concert must have been at least a 6 octave (probably 6.5) if they used a cadenza by Ashkenazy?

Sorry, I really have no idea. I may have a programme for this concert, which may describe the piano, but it will take some time for me to look for it.

Also, I am completely UNcertain of the cadenza performed in this concert; I should have said that I SPECULATED that it could have been the one by Ashkenazy...speaking of which, I took the liberty of copying the Ashkenazy cadenza in question. If you have the time, please give it a listen. I'd be curious to know what you think of it from a fp perspective--does it go above the top keys, etc.?
http://acorn.he.net/~nickb/lvb/index.html

Regarding the issue of the colour of the fortepiano - in Vienna they were natural wood coloured in B's day, and for many years after B's death. I've seen photos of instruments of a very light wood colour, like pinewood, so perhaps the piano was one such as these.

Entirely possible.

[Joy]

I've seen a replica of Beethoven's 1795 fortepiano (black keys) had a range of five octaves and five notes, 66 keys. Light in colour. The case and it's inner parts were made mostly of basswood, maple, mahogany, Swiss pear, lemonwood, cherry, walnut, spruce, beach, and poplar. Paul Poletti currently builds fortepianos in his shop in Urecht, the Netherlands.

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by NickB:
If you have the time, please give it a listen. I'd be curious to know what you think of it from a fp perspective--does it go above the top keys, etc.?

Well, I'm no authority on such cadenzas but i'll have a listen later. Purists would say the span of keyboard required by the cadenza should not exceed that required for the concerto as a whole, I presume all in the aid of homogeny. Beethoven himself was not a purist in this respect. I know nothing about the 'Ashkenazy cadenza' but I just stipulated that modern pianists would be even less purist, especially given the compass of todays pianos. However I would expect 'A' to at least restrict himself to 6.5 octaves, the maximum deemed necessary in B's day.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-19-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by NickB:
If you have the time, please give it a listen. I'd be curious to know what you think of it from a fp perspective--does it go above the top keys, etc.? http://acorn.he.net/~nickb/lvb/index.html

Had a listen, about 10 listens actually! The keyboard needed here sounds certainly beyond anything available in the late 1790's! Askenazy's playing I don't like, he attempts a mish-mash of just about every style going, all exagerated in each instance. So I don't know what to make of the cadenza other than it makes use of the upper register in a manner that Beethoven would not typically undertake. I more level headed performance stylistically from A would help. But I'm no pianist so don't ask for any detailed analysis! Peter can do that for you!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Had a listen, about 10 listens actually! The keyboard needed here sounds certainly beyond anything available in the late 1790's! Askenazy's playing I don't like, he attempts a mish-mash of just about every style going, all exagerated in each instance. So I don't know what to make of the cadenza other than it makes use of the upper register in a manner that Beethoven would not typically undertake. I more level headed performance stylistically from A would help. But I'm no pianist so don't ask for any detailed analysis! Peter can do that for you!

I find the playing hard and unsympathetic. As to the cadenza, there were in fact three cadenzas written for this movement by Beethoven - 2 in 1809 and one slightly earlier. The Ashkenazy cadenza seems to take bits from all of these - if the object was to present something more in keeping with the overall date of the concerto then it fails.

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'Man know thyself'