Classical look alikes

[hal9000]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lACGUsaP6eQ[/youtube]

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[Quijote]

Good Lord, at least Beethoven had the good sense to make the above into a symphony and not a piano sonata!

[AeolianHarp]

I think whoever made that Suchet-Beethoven comparison has prosopagnosia.

Ha ha ha yes!

[AeolianHarp]

Good Lord, at least Beethoven had the good sense to make the above into a symphony and not a piano sonata!

Good grief.... it sounded like Lizst on a bender!

[Harvey]

[hal9000]

I know Beethoven wasn't too keen on transcribing his own pieces, but the symphony transcriptions in the hands of Liszt are really accomplished works. There are few, if any, better composers to showcase the orchestral properties of the piano.

[Chris]

I know Beethoven wasn't too keen on transcribing his own pieces, but the symphony transcriptions in the hands of Liszt are really accomplished works. There are few, if any, better composers to showcase the orchestral properties of the piano.

Very true, and Katsaris' recordings of them are fantastic and very worth having, although he deviates in several ways from what Liszt wrote, so I wouldn't want them to be my only recordings of these transcriptions.

[Harvey]

I know Beethoven wasn't too keen on transcribing his own pieces, but the symphony transcriptions in the hands of Liszt are really accomplished works. There are few, if any, better composers to showcase the orchestral properties of the piano.

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But there is one he transcribed. I forgot, but think it was a symphony movement to piano?

[Chris]

\
But there is one he transcribed. I forgot, but think it was a symphony movement to piano?

Yes, he started a piano transcription of the 7th Symphony, but only made it part of the way through the first movement. Leslie Howard recorded it - it is available on this disc, which contains Liszt's early Beethoven transcriptions:

http://www.amazon.com/Compl-Piano-Mu...9284507&sr=8-2

It's a very interesting disc for those who love Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven's symphonies, as it shows his early efforts at transcribing these works.

Beethoven completed piano transcriptions of several of his works, though, such as Creatures of Prometheus, Wellington's Victory, and Ritterballet. Steven Beck has recorded these.

[hal9000]

\
But there is one he transcribed. I forgot, but think it was a symphony movement to piano?

He transcribed the Grosse Fuge, if that's the one you're thinking of. He also transcribed his piano sonata Opus 14 #1 for string quartet. Here's the third movement.

"The unnatural mania for transplanting piano stuff to string instruments, instruments so completely opposite in all ways, might well cease... I firmly believe that only Mozart, also Haydn, was capable of translating himself from the piano to other instruments, and without wanting to set myself up as the equal of those great men, I would maintain the same thing about my piano sonatas. It is not just a matter of totally leaving out and changing whole passages. One also has to add, and there is the stumbling block: to overcome it you either have to be the master yourself or be at least his equal in cleverness and invention. I have transformed only one of my sonatas into a string quartet, for which I had been urgently asked, and I know for certain that no one else is goiing to come along and do it equally well."

I think it's safe to say that Liszt is that equal. I'm not sure even Beethoven would have thought it possible to transcribe his symphonies as well as Liszt did, especially since the modern piano with its huge orchestral sonorities didn't exist during Beethoven's lifetime.

[AeolianHarp]

No offence meant to Liszt...the transcription sounded like Liszt gone wrong, not Liszt in all his brilliance!

[hal9000]

No offence meant to Liszt...the transcription sounded like Liszt gone wrong, not Liszt in all his brilliance!

Just that movement, or Liszt's transcriptions of the symphonies in general?

http://youtu.be/UgdSR0N08fM?t=42m

This is brilliant. I'm not a pianist, so I'm ignorant towards the technical difficulties, but just imagining the double fugue being played with only ten fingers gives me carpal tunnel. And the modern grand during the triumphant climax at 50:00 packs nearly as much punch as the horns do; you can't do this on no stinking fortepiano! :P

[AeolianHarp]

Just that movement, or Liszt's transcriptions of the symphonies in general?

Oh that was a Liszt transcription? Wasn't keen on it no.


http://youtu.be/UgdSR0N08fM?t=42m

This is brilliant. I'm not a pianist, so I'm ignorant towards the technical difficulties, but just imagining the double fugue being played with only ten fingers gives me carpal tunnel. And the modern grand during the triumphant climax at 50:00 packs nearly as much punch as the horns do; you can't do this on no stinking fortepiano! :P

Clever of course, but if Beethoven had wanted his symphonies transcribed for piano he would have done so, and dare I say it with less florid flourishments. The music has lost Beethoven’s spirit. As for being "done" on a fortepiano, obviously you haven't heard Hammerklavier played by Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano- which is powerful and stirring. And Paul Badura Skoda on an original Schantz!

[hal9000]

Oh that was a Liszt transcription? Wasn't keen on it no.

I don't know how much Katsaris deviates from Liszt's, but according to him they are more in keeping with the original text:

"When I compared Beethoven's orchestral score of the Pastoral symphony with Liszt's transcription, I disovered a number of places where the music could, in my opinion, have remained closer to the original in the adaptation for piano. In no way did entertain the thought or presumption that I could "do it better" than Liszt, who achieved a quite exemplary rendering for piano. However, hoping to arrive at something as close to Beethoven's text as possible, I did want to try and bring out several instruments which Liszt failed to inclide in his trancription and which, accordingly, are not to be heard. Needless to say, performace of the piano version is made infinitely more difficult by these few alterations since I have added things, and subtracted nothing."

Clever of course, but if Beethoven had wanted his symphonies transcribed for piano he would have done so, and dare I say it with less florid flourishments. The music has lost Beethoven’s spirit.

What in that movement I linked above is a superfluous flourishment? Beethoven thought his works untranscribable, because he thought things needed to be added and/or recomposed to fit the instrument(s) they were being transcribed to while still remaing true to the original intent. That is exactly what Liszt did; he managed to get an orchestral sound without an orchestra. Of course, the definitive versions are still the symphonic versions, but hearing them in a more reducted timbre is a refreshing change. This is still supremely beautiful, and I hear nothing but Beethoven's spirit here.

As for being "done" on a fortepiano, obviously you haven't heard Hammerklavier played by Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano- which is powerful and stirring. And Paul Badura Skoda on an original Schantz!

I wasn't being entirely sincere, but can the low rumbling notes here, which projects the same type of effect as in the original, be done on a fortepiano? Or this? There are obviously advantages and disadvantages to both instruments, and the big orchestral sound is one the modern grand does better, as it really utilizes the larger register to greater effect. I'm not suggesting that the fortepiano's timbre and the sonorous effect it gives off isn't better , as I think I agree with you on that (with exceptions) - at least with Beethoven anyway.