Naked
If I were Beethoven I would feel naked because of having composed such intimate works as the last quartets. They uncover the soul of a complex man, and let us investigate his also very complicated psyche. What do you think about this? What do you think Sigmund Freud would have said (excuse me for my grammar errors, I'm just a student) if he had analized Beethoven?
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Yes the late quartets delve deep into his soul - to me they seem accepting (gone is the defiance of the middle period)and to go beyond the sufferings of this world - particularly the slow movements which are very spiritual. As to Beethoven's psyche, I think there was an enormous anger bubbling below the surface, that could explode for the slightest reason - this stemmed from the frustrations of his deafness and let's not forget, many other physical ailments which in themselves must have been distressing.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself' -
Whatever he would have said, it probably would have been incorrect! Solomon's psychoanalysis of Beethoven is bad enough already!Originally posted by chopithoven:
What do you think Sigmund Freud would have said (excuse me for my grammar errors, I'm just a student) if he had analized Beethoven?
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Beethoven, Bad enough already??...I don't think so.Originally posted by Rod:
Whatever he would have said, it probably would have been incorrect! Solomon's psychoanalysis of Beethoven is bad enough already!
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freedom for all- Ludwig Van BeethovenComment
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I thought I made it clear that it's Solomon's psychoanalysis that is bad.Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
Beethoven, Bad enough already??...I don't think so.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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I really hope that Freud never made any comment upon the late Beethoven quartet.
This quartets represent perfect emotional expressions, since words is just an indirect way to express emotions there is NO purpose to express Beethoven late quartets in words.
If we want the truth about how Beethoven emotions perhaps the Lindsay string quartet
is the place to start.
(Agree with Rod ,Solomon is trash)
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Hmmmmm.... I shall have to scratch his late quartets off my list. There is so much of Ludwigs work to listen to, some much to glean from. If, indeed, his quartets are beyond poetry than he has created something extraordinary :-)StephenComment
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Well T.S.Elliot wrote the Four quartets based on them - You can write about it in poetic terms, but the written word can never express the depth of feeling found in the music. Music has to say something that cannot be expressed in words or else what's the point of it? When the two are combined as in opera or lieder, the words are subservient to the music.Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Hmmmmm.... I shall have to scratch his late quartets off my list. There is so much of Ludwigs work to listen to, some much to glean from. If, indeed, his quartets are beyond poetry than he has created something extraordinary :-)
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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True but the expression in instrumental music is by default of an abstract nature. The introduction of words obviously focuses the meaning and although, as you rightly say, the words are subordinate to the music, the combination of the two can give a more directly human form of communication that instrumental music alone cannot. I would not say that instrumental music by default is the supreme form, for Beethovens own great vocal pieces prove this not to be the case. In my walkman today I have the pastoral ode L'Allegro, Il Penseroso ed Il Moderato by Handel, one of the most deep and profound pieces of music you will ever hear, and its even sung in English (Gardiners 1981 recording on Erato with the English Baroque soloists - BUY IT NOW! Gardiner states in the notes that he believes it to be Handel's greatest English work). If anything i would say that Beethoven's achievement was to raise the general standard of instrumental composition to that of the great vocal works such as those of Handel.Originally posted by Peter:
Music has to say something that cannot be expressed in words or else what's the point of it? When the two are combined as in opera or lieder, the words are subservient to the music.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-14-2002).]Comment
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Ohh now I get it. I agree with you guys, Solomon is so terrible and a waste of trash.Originally posted by Rod:
I thought I made it clear that it's Solomon's psychoanalysis that is bad.
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freedom for all- Ludwig Van BeethovenComment
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Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Hmmmmm.... I shall have to scratch his late quartets off my list. There is so much of Ludwigs work to listen to, some much to glean from. If, indeed, his quartets are beyond poetry than he has created something extraordinary :-)
*giggling* You make me laugh!
)
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freedom for all- Ludwig Van BeethovenComment
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And yet I bet he's the standard recommended reading for music students?! I think the Imortal Beloved movie must have been strongly influenced by Solomon's writing, for the movie portrays Beethoven as a total psychotic throughout!Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
Ohh now I get it. I agree with you guys, Solomon is so terrible and a waste of trash.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-15-2002).]Comment
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Originally posted by Peter:
Well T.S.Elliot wrote the Four quartets based on them - You can write about it in poetic terms, but the written word can never express the depth of feeling found in the music. Music has to say something that cannot be expressed in words or else what's the point of it? When the two are combined as in opera or lieder, the words are subservient to the music.
The 'point' being: To open up the heart. Some need the extra 'push' that music allows to be able to open up and express themselves, in words, to those around them.
You could have replied to me in music.... :O)
StephenComment
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Why don't believe in psychoanalysis?Comment
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Because it attempts to conveniently straightjacket all human behavior in to neatly predicatable models. Probably the only person Freud was correctly analysing was himself! Everyone knows Psychology students come out with more b*ll than anyone can stand at college.Originally posted by chopithoven:
Why don't believe in psychoanalysis?
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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