Beethoven v Chopin on the piano

[AeolianHarp]

No, I don't mean this to be adversarial, as let's face it both the composers wrote astounding piano music and were from different eras. What I was wondering is overall whose is the most difficult to play? I have seen pianists ( on you tube) playing Chopin's etudes and they look killers to play. Are they as difficult to play as Beethoven's later sonatas like Hammerklavier?

[Peter]

Impossible question I'm afraid - the fugue finale of the Hammerklavier is almost impossible to play (for me totally impossible)! Don't forget it's also not always about rapid notes, people often mistakenly think fast music is harder to play than slow, interpretively the slow movement of the Hammerklavier is also formidable. Godowsky didn't think the Chopin etudes were hard enough and arranged them to make them twice as hard!

If you want to hear some of the most technically demanding music of the 19th century piano repertoire, listen to Alkan!

[AeolianHarp]

Impossible question I'm afraid - the fugue finale of the Hammerklavier is almost impossible to play (for me totally impossible)! Don't forget it's also not always about rapid notes, people often mistakenly think fast music is harder to play than slow, interpretively the slow movement of the Hammerklavier is also formidable. Godowsky didn't think the Chopin etudes were hard enough and arranged them to make them twice as hard!

If you want to hear some of the most technically demanding music of the 19th century piano repertoire, listen to Alkan!

I had never heard of Alkan before now. I have heard that said before about fast music- but to a beginner fast always seems harder!

What makes Beethoven's fugue so hard to play?

[Peter]

I had never heard of Alkan before now. I have heard that said before about fast music- but to a beginner fast always seems harder!

What makes Beethoven's fugue so hard to play?

It's so awkward for the hands - ties them in knots and the numerous trills are very hard as you have to do that and play different parts with the same hand at the same time. Aside from that it is an enormous intellectual challenge.

[AeolianHarp]

It's so awkward for the hands - ties them in knots and the numerous trills are very hard as you have to do that and play different parts with the same hand at the same time. Aside from that it is an enormous intellectual challenge.

Sounds very difficult! Beethoven must have had very agile hands!

[Megan]

Wasn't Beethoven's Grosse Fuge written for Violin? I've never heard in on piano.

[Peter]

Wasn't Beethoven's Grosse Fuge written for Violin? I've never heard in on piano.

We're talking about the fugue finale of the Hammerklavier sonata Op.106 -
The grosse fugue was the original finale for the string quartet Op.130 (Beethoven did subsequently arrange it for piano duet).

[AeolianHarp]

The Grosse Fugue works equally well on piano!

[dahc]

Both Chopin and Beethoven have technical/pedigogical challenges. My feeling is that scholarly interpretation is the most challenging aspect in duty of the performer to bring out the voice of the composer. Many aspiring pianists, who have work diligently on technique, can skillfully exicute a Chopin Ballade or Etude or Polonaise. But the ability to interpret a piano work such as the Diabelli Variations, or even seemingly simple Bagatelle, takes an enormous effort at all levels. I believe Beethoven is more technically difficult to play his work requires deeper research into the form. No disrespect at all to Chopin whom I love too.

[Peter]

Both Chopin and Beethoven have technical/pedigogical challenges. My feeling is that scholarly interpretation is the most challenging aspect in duty of the performer to bring out the voice of the composer. Many aspiring pianists, who have work diligently on technique, can skillfully exicute a Chopin Ballade or Etude or Polonaise. But the ability to interpret a piano work such as the Diabelli Variations, or even seemingly simple Bagatelle, takes an enormous effort at all levels. I believe Beethoven is more technically difficult to play his work requires deeper research into the form. No disrespect at all to Chopin whom I love too.

I agree with this, especially in relation to Beethoven's last works for piano. There is also the practical side in that Chopin is more naturally pianistic, his music is conceived specifically in that way, whereas Beethoven is thinking orchestrally and even quartet (in the last sonatas) hence the often awkward passages!

[AeolianHarp]

I agree with this, especially in relation to Beethoven's last works for piano. There is also the practical side in that Chopin is more naturally pianistic, his music is conceived specifically in that way, whereas Beethoven is thinking orchestrally and even quartet (in the last sonatas) hence the often awkward passages!

I can understand this even as a beginner LOL! Chopin said that he didn't find orchestration easy and he didn't really write for orchestras- only piano concertos- but brilliant they are.

Structurally, Beethoven's music, is of course astounding. The Diabelli variations are fantastic! I know what you mean about Chopin's music being pianistic- this was his sole instrument- but he was excellent at getting the feel of voice in there due to his love of female opera singing.

Beethoven's late piano sonatas are an incredible achievement- one of them, sonata no 31, I think it is, has the sound of a church bell tolling! Haydn was like that too- he made the piano imitate sounds from court life and imitated fancy clocks!

[Albert Gans]

I think it is important to note that music has so many levels of difficulty and skills required, that comparisons are difficult. Peter was making the important point that while agility is important for the fast pieces, making slow pieces sound right is often a lot more difficult in terms of getting the emotions across. A slight shift in accent makes all the difference, even a fraction of a second in playing a note earlier or later can make a huge difference.
I once saw Haitink conduct Mahler's Third way back (when he was still a really top conductor, in the 80s with 'his' KCO) and it fell apart according to me: Mahler uses comma's in his scores to put in very short pauzes, place to 'breathe' and if you make those too long, the whole piece unravels... which happened that day (according to me). On the other hand I saw him do Mahler's Fifth to perection in the same period.....

[Peter]

I think it is important to note that music has so many levels of difficulty and skills required, that comparisons are difficult. Peter was making the important point that while agility is important for the fast pieces, making slow pieces sound right is often a lot more difficult in terms of getting the emotions across. A slight shift in accent makes all the difference, even a fraction of a second in playing a note earlier or later can make a huge difference.
I once saw Haitink conduct Mahler's Third way back (when he was still a really top conductor, in the 80s with 'his' KCO) and it fell apart according to me: Mahler uses comma's in his scores to put in very short pauzes, place to 'breathe' and if you make those too long, the whole piece unravels... which happened that day (according to me). On the other hand I saw him do Mahler's Fifth to perection in the same period.....

You were so lucky to hear Haitink live! Yes, a good example of a difficult slow movement to bring across is Beethoven's D minor sonata 'Tempest' - few pianists have success with this.

[AeolianHarp]

Ronald Brautigam does it !

[Peter]

Ronald Brautigam does it !

Interesting because that's generally where the fortepiano fails in comparison to the modern piano - sustaining of long notes in a slow tempo. I shall have to find time to listen in the holidays!