Universality v's nationalism

[Peter]

You think of certain composers such as Beethoven, Bach or Mozart and personally I don't think 'German' even though they obviously are - their music has a universality about it which transcends national boundaries and I think makes it greater than those composers who we identify more strongly with particular countries. You can't think Verdi without Italy, Wagner without Germany, Elgar without England. The rise of nationalism in the 19th century of course was responsible and it's hard to think of a composer from then who escaped its influence. A composer such as Vaughan-Williams for example can never be loved or understood in Japan as much as in England, but not so with the composers I mentioned at the start. I just wondered if anyone else agrees that this is a valid point?

[AeolianHarp]

Some valid points yes. I have no idea how popular Vaughan-Williams is outside of England, but yes, his music is very English sounding- especially The Lark Ascending- I always picture English villages and meadows listening to that! Does make me feel slightly patriotic.
Now regarding the Pastorale Symphony- I can highly relate to it, but I do tend to picture the Vienna countryside listening to this and his famous Brook! But I don't suppose it is much different to the English landscape.
I'm always aware Beethoven is German, and that is part of him, but it isn't the whole of him- he has a universality indeed.

[Belle]

You think of certain composers such as Beethoven, Bach or Mozart and personally I don't think 'German' even though they obviously are - their music has a universality about it which transcends national boundaries and I think makes it greater than those composers who we identify more strongly with particular countries. You can't think Verdi without Italy, Wagner without Germany, Elgar without England. The rise of nationalism in the 19th century of course was responsible and it's hard to think of a composer from then who escaped its influence. A composer such as Vaughan-Williams for example can never be loved or understood in Japan as much as in England, but not so with the composers I mentioned at the start. I just wondered if anyone else agrees that this is a valid point?

I don't think there's anything particularly French about Berlioz or Austro-Hungarian about Liszt. Those two composers had that kind of 'universality' to which you refer, despite the fact that both hover in the penumbra of nationalistic consciousness. There are many composers such as Dvorak, later in the 19th century, whose limning of 'romantic' nationalism renders your comments axiomatic.

For me, Bach and Beethoven are decidedly Germanic despite their 'universality' today. Mozart and Schubert are primarily Austrian because of the tendency of both to adumbrate that country's folk music traditions.

[AeolianHarp]

Nice post Belle. Got me thinking more about Ralph Vaughan Williams- he was very interested in old English folk music and so it is reflected in his music. He obviously still resonates with us Brits today as he has won Classic FM's Hall of Fame more than once!
Funnily enough I voted for Beethoven! Sorry Ralph.
And what about Frederic Chopin? His music incorporated a lot of Polish traditional music in it....yet he is loved universally too. It was hearing Chopin that got me into classical music in the first place.

[Peter]

Some valid points yes. I have no idea how popular Vaughan-Williams is outside of England, but yes, his music is very English sounding- especially The Lark Ascending- I always picture English villages and meadows listening to that! Does make me feel slightly patriotic.
Now regarding the Pastorale Symphony- I can highly relate to it, but I do tend to picture the Vienna countryside listening to this and his famous Brook! But I don't suppose it is much different to the English landscape.
I'm always aware Beethoven is German, and that is part of him, but it isn't the whole of him- he has a universality indeed.

Actually Beethoven's 6th is a good example. I don't think it feels anything other than the countryside - it doesn't have to be Heiligenstadt it can be West Sussex or the Loire, whereas the Lark ascending is England through and through!

[Peter]

I don't think there's anything particularly French about Berlioz or Austro-Hungarian about Liszt. Those two composers had that kind of 'universality' to which you refer, despite the fact that both hover in the penumbra of nationalistic consciousness. There are many composers such as Dvorak, later in the 19th century, whose limning of 'romantic' nationalism renders your comments axiomatic.

For me, Bach and Beethoven are decidedly Germanic despite their 'universality' today. Mozart and Schubert are primarily Austrian because of the tendency of both to adumbrate that country's folk music traditions.

Berlioz is rather a unique figure, so highly original. Liszt is far more of an almalgamation of different cultures and influences - mix Paganini with Berlioz, a sprinkling of Chopin, some Beethoven and later on Wagner and you have Liszt!

[Peter]

Nice post Belle. Got me thinking more about Ralph Vaughan Williams- he was very interested in old English folk music and so it is reflected in his music. He obviously still resonates with us Brits today as he has won Classic FM's Hall of Fame more than once!
Funnily enough I voted for Beethoven! Sorry Ralph.
And what about Frederic Chopin? His music incorporated a lot of Polish traditional music in it....yet he is loved universally too. It was hearing Chopin that got me into classical music in the first place.

What I'm getting at here is not popularity but a quality in the music that gives it a meaning to different cultures. I think it comes down to optimism and belief - Bach's music is inseparable from his spirituality and Beethoven's from his humanity. Both these qualities transcend national boundaries and in an age of uncertainty I think that is the secret of their universal appeal, they give us hope. Two later composers correspond for me with Bach and Beethoven - Bruckner (spirituality) and Mahler (humanity) but in them I feel the doubt and uncertainty of the 19th century, that is at least how it appears to me.

[AeolianHarp]

Actually Beethoven's 6th is a good example. I don't think it feels anything other than the countryside - it doesn't have to be Heiligenstadt it can be West Sussex or the Loire, whereas the Lark ascending is England through and through!

Yes, it evokes a northern European countryside, but the Lark couldn't be anywhere but an English rural scene in mid summer!

[AeolianHarp]

What I'm getting at here is not popularity but a quality in the music that gives it a meaning to different cultures. I think it comes down to optimism and belief - Bach's music is inseparable from his spirituality and Beethoven's from his humanity. Both these qualities transcend national boundaries and in an age of uncertainty I think that is the secret of their universal appeal, they give us hope. Two later composers correspond for me with Bach and Beethoven - Bruckner (spirituality) and Mahler (humanity) but in them I feel the doubt and uncertainty of the 19th century, that is at least how it appears to me.

Beethoven's is also profound and spiritual- especially the late string quartets- they are so magical.

[Peter]

Beethoven's is also profound and spiritual- especially the late string quartets- they are so magical.

Of course and I don't mean that the qualities of spirituality and humanity are unique to those composers or that Bach and Beethoven don't share both qualities. However I'm talking about the essence of their being and those qualities are imbued in every note Bach and Beethoven wrote which to my mind sets them apart from most other composers - let's just take two of their greatest works that can be said to sum them up; Bach's B minor Mass and Beethoven's 9th symphony - the first is a testament of Bach's deep religious faith and conviction, the second is the greatest expression of Beethoven's faith in humanity.

[AeolianHarp]

I'm not really a fan of Bach, not my thing religious music, but if one is religious I can imagine Bach is appreciated.

Aside from Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn my era is the Romantics (secular music)- Chopin etc. The Fantasy Impromptu!!!

[Peter]

I'm not really a fan of Bach, not my thing religious music, but if one is religious I can imagine Bach is appreciated.

Aside from Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn my era is the Romantics (secular music)- Chopin etc. The Fantasy Impromptu!!!

Bach wrote plenty of secular music, you don't have to be religious to appreciate Bach!

[AeolianHarp]

Just remembered I have got 3 Bach CDS- Classic FM one- music for our time, Orchestral Suites nos 1 and 3 and one of my late brother's CDs- The Ultimate Collection. Don't think I have ever even listened to them ( certainly not the one left by my brother). I think I got the other two from a charity shop for 50p.
Yeah, I know all of his music wasn't religious- as I know the Well Tempered Clavier and the Brandenberg Concerto- but a lot of his music was religious from what I have read- he was very pious wasn't he?

Just put on music from our time CD- there is some Fantasia in C minor played on a harpsichord- sounds very authentic! So much so it is kind of odd listening to it on a computer! How things have changed since Bach's time!

I'd forgotten about these CDs as they are in a box where I keep my CDs that are not played as much- my CD rack is nearly full! (Beethoven and Mozart mostly).

[AeolianHarp]

I think you've done me a favour here discussing Bach Peter- this CD is very nice- relaxing! Will keep me going as I do my daily job search lol.

[Peter]

I think you've done me a favour here discussing Bach Peter- this CD is very nice- relaxing! Will keep me going as I do my daily job search lol.

I hope it opens the doors to Bach for you - he is one of the greatest of composers, remember Beethoven said he should be called 'Ocean' and it is not for nothing that musicians throughout the ages have revered his name, even when it fell into relative decline after his death. Yes Bach was a deeply religious man, but the point I am making in this thread is about his universality.

Consider biologist Lewis Thomas’s opinion about the contents of the disc that was to be placed on the 1977 Voyager spacecraft before launching it on its long journey into the cosmos. Carl Sagan had asked Thomas for his suggestions about works which would represent the human race at its very finest. Thomas replied: “I would send the complete works of Johann Sebastian Bach.” Then he paused and added: “But that would be boasting.”