The writing of symphony.

[Enrique]

I was interested in knowing the dates of composition of Beethoven's first piano concerto and first symphony. I wanted to know what was the gap, in years, between one and the other, just to have an idea of the degree of dificulty implied in writing a symphony as opposed to writing a concerto (in those times). What I found pretty much availed my suspicions: there was a five-year gap. It seems certain that writing a shymphony was a lot harder than composing a piano concerto, despite the fact that a piano concerto, and specially in the hands of Beethoven, is really a symphonic work (this can already be seen in the late works of Mozart).

What I was surprised to learn is that Beethoven was so old when he composed these works. He was 26 when he began writing the concerto and 31 when the symphony was published! Assuming that Beethoven began to familiarize with music at the age of five, two things could be implied by this fact: One, that for Beethoven the composition of a symphony was a high enterprise (compare with Mozart, who must have written his first symphony before he was 12). Or two, that the amount of preparation required to write a symphony in those times was large. Consider the fact that he was Beethoven, and not any mediocre composer. And however, he waited until he was 31 to write his first symphony!

At the same time, this shows that the concept of the work of art had enormously changed in the course of a few years. From now on, few of the symphonists of the 19th century surpassed the number of nine.

[Peter]

I wouldn't say writing a great piano concerto was any easier or harder than writing a great symphony! The reason Beethoven wrote piano concertos first was because he was a virtuoso pianist and this was a means of getting himself known. The fundamental shift in society came about with the French revolution and the subsequent rise of the middle classes - composers from Beethoven onwards were not as reliant on patronage and commissions and consequently the concept of art (that you refer to) was changed forever.

[Enrique]

"I wouldn't say writing a great piano concerto was any easier or harder than writing a great symphony": Well, Peter, I think you are defying the law of excluded middle here. Either it is easier or it is more difficult! I could also quote Brahms who, not reliant on the work he was writing to bear the name of a symphony, he made up his mind to transform it into his first piano concerto. Again you could argue Brahms had a complex with Beethoven and that he did not dare to write his first symphony given the precedent of his great predecessor. But there is much folklore about this I think. Clearly, the concerto gives much more room for fantasy than the symphony, a more severe and strict form. See the case of Chopin. He could write, and eventually wrote, piano concertos. But I do not think he would be able to write a symphony.

Anyway, concerto or symphony, what I wanted to emphasize was the large amount of preparation Beethoven had when he dared write his first orchestral work, namely, the first piano concerto which, by the way, I think is one of his most accomplished concertos.

[Peter]

I don't agree with the idea of it having to be easier or more difficult. Mozart wrote his great last 3 symphonies in a matter of weeks - does that make them 'easier' to write than Beethoven's first or second? I don't think so. We have to remember that Beethoven generally was quite a slow composer compared to his predecessors.

[Megan]

I think with Beethoven and the time it took composing his works, we must give consideration to his struggle with health and family issues getting in the way. I don't think he enjoyed the best of health at anytime during his short life. But I am glad Beethoven soldiered on and at times struggled with health issues to commit to paper for all time the wonderful music he had in his head.

[AeolianHarp]

I think with Beethoven and the time it took composing his works, we must give consideration to his struggle with health and family issues getting in the way. I don't think he enjoyed the best of health at anytime during his short life. But I am glad Beethoven soldiered on and at times struggled with health issues to commit to paper for all time the wonderful music he had in his head.

Good points Megan- the poor man suffered from crippling stomach pains and often he was so ill he couldn't go out.

[dahc]

Anyone who has put the music to manuscipt by the pen would know this can be very time consuming. Not to mention editing the copists work who had to translate the masters scribbling. This would mean days and weeks of back and forth redos and edits. How many assistants did Beethoven have? How were they compensated? Paper and ink.
Personally I think composing was easy for the Master. Maybe his greatest struggle was the logistics and health

[AeolianHarp]

Anyone who has put the music to manuscipt by the pen would know this can be very time consuming. Not to mention editing the copists work who had to translate the masters scribbling. This would mean days and weeks of back and forth redos and edits. How many assistants did Beethoven have? How were they compensated? Paper and ink.
Personally I think composing was easy for the Master. Maybe his greatest struggle was the logistics and health

Welcome dahc! Yes imagine writing all this out by hand with quills- I suppose modern day composers use software now! They can even hear how it will sound before an orchestra plays it!

Beethoven had a few copyists over the years.

[Peter]

Anyone who has put the music to manuscipt by the pen would know this can be very time consuming. Not to mention editing the copists work who had to translate the masters scribbling. This would mean days and weeks of back and forth redos and edits. How many assistants did Beethoven have? How were they compensated? Paper and ink.
Personally I think composing was easy for the Master. Maybe his greatest struggle was the logistics and health

Beethoven hired professional copyists (who were paid) and had several over the years, some experienced his wrath!

[hal9000]

Good points Megan- the poor man suffered from crippling stomach pains and often he was so ill he couldn't go out.

It's quite remarkable that Mozart managed to compose at the rate he did at such a young age considering his own health problems. From wikipedia: "Mozart had health problems throughout his life, suffering from smallpox, tonsillitis, bronchitis, pneumonia, typhoid fever, rheumatism, and gum disease."

[AeolianHarp]

It's quite remarkable that Mozart managed to compose at the rate he did at such a young age considering his own health problems. From wikipedia: "Mozart had health problems throughout his life, suffering from smallpox, tonsillitis, bronchitis, pneumonia, typhoid fever, rheumatism, and gum disease."

They sure were hard working in those days!