When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[AeolianHarp]

I am now studying the "A case", that came from these famous words in Beethoven's Tagebuch:

“Submissiveness, deepest devotion to your destiny...Oh tough struggle! --- Do everything necessary to prepare for the long journey... you are not allowed to be human, not for you, only for others, for you there is no happiness any more but in yourself, in your art - Oh God! give me the strength to defeat myself, nothing can bind me to life. -
In this manner with A, everything goes to ruin - - -."

The "A" is AB according to Solomon. We don't believe it. Klapproth indicates in his book that the "A" is actually "St", pointing Stackelberg, J's 2nd husband. This new finding was made by Steblin. Do you think her answer is convincing?

Yes, look what was written about the copyists and compare the cipher to an a and an st. Also Stackleberg makes far more sense - he ruined Josephine. I posted about this earlier remember?

[thesunlover]

Then what does this really mean -- "In this manner with Stackleberg, everything goes to ruin"?

In what manner???

[AeolianHarp]

Then what does this really mean -- "In this manner with Stackleberg, everything goes to ruin"?

In what manner???

Have you not read the book yet?

Read on and you will see what Stackleberg did to Josephine.

[thesunlover]

I am reading the book now.

“Submissiveness, deepest devotion to your destiny...Oh tough struggle! --- Do everything necessary to prepare for the long journey... you are not allowed to be human, not for you, only for others, for you there is no happiness any more but in yourself, in your art - Oh God! give me the strength to defeat myself, nothing can bind me to life. - In this manner with A, everything goes to ruin - - -."

What is the connection between the last sentence and the words prior to it? The last sentence doesn't make lots of sense seemingly. This is why I don't understand the word "manner".

[AeolianHarp]

I am reading the book now.

“Submissiveness, deepest devotion to your destiny...Oh tough struggle! --- Do everything necessary to prepare for the long journey... you are not allowed to be human, not for you, only for others, for you there is no happiness any more but in yourself, in your art - Oh God! give me the strength to defeat myself, nothing can bind me to life. - In this manner with A, everything goes to ruin - - -."

What is the connection between the last sentence and the words prior to it? The last sentence doesn't make lots of sense seemingly. This is why I don't understand the word "manner".

Is English your second language sunlover? Is this why you are struggling to understand what Klapproth writes? I find him a very clear writer- not sure why you need me to explain it all the time. He has published this book in other languages if that is easier for you- have a look on Amazon.

And why do you ask such detail? Are you writing an essay about the women in Beethoven's life or something?

It is quite clear to me- he is reminding himself that his music (his art) is his destiny, that he must remain devoted to it and what it brings to his life and others ( you have seen how he communicates through his music and to Josephine through music),that through music he will find most happiness, he asks God to give him strength to carry on ( as of course he is in pain from the situation with Josephine) and that Stackleberg is ruining things because he is married to Josephine, who wants to be free of Stackleberg.

It is quite clear:

Beethoven and the countess are in love and have been for many years but are not allowed to marry.

She is married to Stackleberg after Deym dies and he is very cruel and takes her children off her- hence he ruins her

Ludwig and Josephine want to be together but they can't- hence all the pain, Stackelberg is an obstacle to their situation, so is society and Josephine's mother.

I should think you can understand that all now.

Read the book until the very end then it should all make sense to you.

[thesunlover]

Yes. English is my second language. I am writing one of the most valuable essays or books about Beethoven in Chinese. See these:

http://yidian.org/view-thread-20892.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-20924.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-21010.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-21238.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-21801.html

In this essay, I am trying my best to correct some of the misunderstandings Chinese people hold about Beethoven. IB is one of the major subjects.

[thesunlover]

Sorry I still don't understand this well. I don’t know if it is an English issue.

Who (Beethoven or Josephine) was in what 'manner' with Stackleberg? My understanding is that the 'manner' should be the sentence in front of the last sentence -- 'Nothing can bind me to life'. If this is the case, then Stackleberg’s name should not be here because it is none of his business.

People including Beethoven can’t put blame for Josephine's second marriage entirely on Stackleberg. Josephine loved him at least at the beginning. Josephine had her last baby with another tutor around 1815(?). Should this man also be blamed?

It’s probably true that Stackleberg ruined Josephine's life. How about if he was a good husband? That would make Beethoven even more impossible to have a close relationship with Josephine.

Did Beethoven mention Stackleberg anywhere else in his life?

[AeolianHarp]

Sorry I still don't understand this well. I don’t know if it is an English issue.

Yes it is an English issue- and remember that this is translated from German so the two languages although similar, are different.

Who (Beethoven or Josephine) was in what 'manner' with Stackleberg? My understanding is that the 'manner' should be the sentence in front of the last sentence -- 'Nothing can bind me to life'. If this is the case, then Stackleberg’s name should not be here because it is none of his business.

The manner is talking about the situation, about Josephine being ill treated by Stackleberg, being married to a man she dislikes, wanting to be with Beethoven etc. The translation will not tie in exactly with English as the German expressions are different.

People including Beethoven can’t put blame for Josephine's second marriage entirely on Stackleberg. Josephine loved him at least at the beginning. Josephine had her last baby with another tutor around 1815(?). Should this man also be blamed?

We don't know enough about Andrian to say.

It’s probably true that Stackleberg ruined Josephine's life. How about if he was a good husband? That would make Beethoven even more impossible to have a close relationship with Josephine.

He wasn't a good husband at all.

Did Beethoven mention Stackleberg anywhere else in his life?

Maybe cryptically in his Tagebuch ( I haven't seen all of it, so don't know) or to close friends. Not publically.

[AeolianHarp]

Yes. English is my second language. I am writing one of the most valuable essays or books about Beethoven in Chinese. See these:

http://yidian.org/view-thread-20892.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-20924.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-21010.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-21238.html
http://yidian.org/view-thread-21801.html

In this essay, I am trying my best to correct some of the misunderstandings Chinese people hold about Beethoven. IB is one of the major subjects.

Well I wish you well with all this sunlover. Are you at university in America then?

[EternaLisa]

Is English your second language sunlover? Is this why you are struggling to understand what Klapproth writes? I find him a very clear writer- not sure why you need me to explain it all the time. He has published this book in other languages if that is easier for you- have a look on Amazon.

And why do you ask such detail? Are you writing an essay about the women in Beethoven's life or something?

It is quite clear to me- he is reminding himself that his music (his art) is his destiny, that he must remain devoted to it and what it brings to his life and others ( you have seen how he communicates through his music and to Josephine through music),that through music he will find most happiness, he asks God to give him strength to carry on ( as of course he is in pain from the situation with Josephine) and that Stackleberg is ruining things because he is married to Josephine, who wants to be free of Stackleberg.

It is quite clear:

Beethoven and the countess are in love and have been for many years but are not allowed to marry.

She is married to Stackleberg after Deym dies and he is very cruel and takes her children off her- hence he ruins her

Ludwig and Josephine want to be together but they can't- hence all the pain, Stackelberg is an obstacle to their situation, so is society and Josephine's mother.

I should think you can understand that all now.

Read the book until the very end then it should all make sense to you.

and all of this made Beethoven into a sort of character that the world is for the most part unfamiliar with?

[thesunlover]

Hi Harp,

Sorry about the delayed reply, very busy with my Beethoven project. Here is my “Immortal Beloved” essay in Chinese. This is the first part mainly focusing on Antonie Brentano. I am now writing the second part mainly focusing on Josephine von Brunswick. Solomon hypothesis is the target in my essay. Thank you again for your great help in this thread!

http://yidian.org/view-thread-21899.html

At lease there are some English words there.

I am an independent freelancer, probably the number 1 Beethoven lover among Chinese.

[thesunlover]

Some of these I fully understand now. I am still studying... Thanks

Yes it is an English issue- and remember that this is translated from German so the two languages although similar, are different...............................

[AeolianHarp]

Good luck with all that sunlover. I see you have Lord Byron as your sig- I presume you like his poems? He was a strange man!
Do you like John Keats' poems ?

[thesunlover]

Thanks, Harp.

Lord Byron was a special man. I like Keats too. In addition, I named my daughter "Shelley"

[AeolianHarp]

Thanks, Harp.

Lord Byron was a special man. I like Keats too. In addition, I named my daughter "Shelley"

I see you like the era 1780s- 1820s then for literature and music! It was an interesting time. Does your daughter like the arts of this time too?