When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[AeolianHarp]

Originally Posted by AeolianHarp View Post
Page 111 in Klapproth - Therese's diary:
Josephine is Tasso, so is Beethoven, her beautiful soul raises us to heaven: we must give her worldly food...
Recieved the letter from Beethoven. Wrote to Beethoven.....Josephine. Write history. Beethoven.

Therese also was keeping a note of where Beethoven was living so she could keep in touch with him as a go between between him and Josephine ( she was ill a lot and also Stackelberg kept coming and going)

Harp,Which year is this part related to?

1814.

Quote:
1818 Josephine wrote a letter on April 8th, when she was extremely ill, on Minona's fith birthday. Here is some of it:

I can only speak in a few words of that which the Spirit tells me in moments of calm...

I would not have written these fragments, had I not believed this way to answer to a request by you which must be dear to me after your last words-What your appearance arouses in my feelings- I cannot describe----
We all do not know, what we are doing, talking, what we are- the universe in our heart...is the starry sky....It seems to break within us, the axis, shattered, torn from its hinges, destroyed are we standing here-opposite each other...what we mutually destroyed within us-------it is standing before our inner eye...

Happy you are not------but deaf---busy with a stern glance beyond-and so calm-serene..in a state of negative happiness-the Book of Memories has many colours-you have browsed it frequently-viewed it-judged it-yourself- too...

Melting into one can happen only when first we have been melted with Eternity, with true sincerity this true desire, the more it purifies itself-this alone is union-forever-everything is like a shell; a form; a casing which...moves in a continuous line up to the last point-If the Spirit could reveal itself to you completely, due to its deficiencies it cannot-------


Like the IB letteer, Klapproth notes no addressee is made. There are similarities in themes here to the IB letter.

Why do you say "There are similarities in themes here to the IB letter", if the letter was written by Josephine, not Beethoven?Thanks!

Because of what they shared and felt- two people who love often have this connection.

[AeolianHarp]

What does this mean - "Auf diese Art mit A geht alles zugrunde" ?

Thanks!

I'm only a beginner in German- but I think something like:

Something about ruining/destroying something in this way- this kind of thing/sort (doing that- my added words for clarification)- German sentence structure isn't the same as English and my head is stuck in English! I think she may be referring to how some of the IB theories need to be changed.
Perhaps Gerd will see this thread and give us the translation or Fredrika.

EDIT:
Ahhhh..ok I get it now- it is something Beethoven wrote in his diary - the bit about ruin jogged my memory- the translation ( Klapproth gives):

In this manner because of A everything goes to ruin---


Only it wasn't an A as Solomon says ( which led him to think it referred to Antonie) but St - Stackleberg. Beethoven's writing is often hard to read but the fascimile (shown in Klapproth's book) done by copyist Fischoff is more accurately copied to Beethoven's handwriting than copyist Graffer who wrote a clear A- Fischoff's shows St. (The original of this diary is sadly lost and what remains are copies of it).
The copyist then wrote 3 dashes- either he could not make out what was written next or left it out. Klapproth states that this cipher looks quite cryptic, but it certainly looks more like St than anything else.
And it makes total sense that Stackleberg is the cause of ruin- look what he was doing to Josephine.

[AeolianHarp]

Here's one of his letters only found recently.

http://www.dw.de/newly-discovered-le...s/a-15659080-1

[AeolianHarp]

If you look at how he wrote his t's and when you get Klapproth's book you can see how some people might think it could be an a but it is not..

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34737...es/illus09.jpg

[thesunlover]

Thanks again, Harp. Let me study more and get back to you later.

[AeolianHarp]

Thanks again, Harp. Let me study more and get back to you later.

I'm only telling you what's in John Klapproth's book.

[thesunlover]

More questions: Did Beethoven meet his IB on July 3, 1812 in Prague? Did he make love with her at that time?

[EternaLisa]

Did he make love with her at that time?

oh come on on now....surely someone that knows has the answer to that

**sigh**...too much information just ain't enough anymore...

[thesunlover]

OK. Let's forget about Prague in where they had only one day, July 3, to do something if they did meet -- I doubt it.

How about Karlsbad and Franzensbad? Beethoven and the Brentano couple and their little daughter spent more than one month together in these two places, from July 31 to Sept 8. What happened among them in these days?

[AeolianHarp]

Klapproth's book- answers your questions sunlover. As for Antonie Bretano- we have been through this- she was not the IB for all the reasons we have discussed in this thread and besides- how is it possible to bed a man's wife right under his nose?

[EternaLisa]

OK. Let's forget about Prague in where they had only one day, July 3, to do something if they did meet -- I doubt it.

How about Karlsbad and Franzensbad? Beethoven and the Brentano couple and their little daughter spent more than one month together in these two places, from July 31 to Sept 8. What happened among them in these days?

History has many unrevealed answers for those who weren't in time and space to know...because a lot of what transpired didn't get into writing, nor did it get discussed to a third party....

So that is why it appears left open for so much speculation. Even those who claim to know and understand, are very subject to surprise in accordance to their own projections with how they interpret these things.

[thesunlover]

Hi everyone,

Busy, busy

I am reading the K book now. One more question:

"Five years ago he had met a woman and would have considered a union with her the greatest happiness of his life. It was not to be countenanced [...] nevertheless 'it is now as on the first day'.[...] But it had never come to a confession, and he could not get it out of his mind."

Do these words come from Fanny's diary?

[Peter]

Yes - there is a theory that she misheard what was said exactly, quite possibly.

[thesunlover]

It's possible, but not very important. Even if Fanny was right with the number of year (5), AB couldn't be the right person in this case, because Beethovne knew her long before 1810. Even Klapproth didn't know this. In his book he said they became acquainted around 1810.

See this: Beethoven's Immortal Beloved: Solving the Mystery

http://books.google.ca/books?id=S6mC...ntonie&f=false

[thesunlover]

I am now studying the "A case", that came from these famous words in Beethoven's Tagebuch:

“Submissiveness, deepest devotion to your destiny...Oh tough struggle! --- Do everything necessary to prepare for the long journey... you are not allowed to be human, not for you, only for others, for you there is no happiness any more but in yourself, in your art - Oh God! give me the strength to defeat myself, nothing can bind me to life. -
In this manner with A, everything goes to ruin - - -."

The "A" is AB according to Solomon. We don't believe it. Klapproth indicates in his book that the "A" is actually "St", pointing Stackelberg, J's 2nd husband. This new finding was made by Steblin. Do you think her answer is convincing?