When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[AeolianHarp]

Fine. Thanks. I've put most of my spare time on Beethoven study. The more I learn, the more questions I have. Thank you again for your helpful answers. I don't believe Antonie is IB anymore.

Good!

(1) I'd rather treat these late sonatas as pure music. Did Beethoven say something regarding Josephine's death?

Not publically- but why would he? This was a highly personal matter- but there is sadness in some of his later music.

(2) Stackelberg didn't know his wife had a new born baby? How come? He never suspected to have been cuckolded? Poor Emilie died at age 2.

http://www.geni.com/people/Emilie-vo...00024102890168

Stackelberg was estranged and not living with her.

[AeolianHarp]

Hi Harp,

The info in your #65 is rather new and astounding!!!

When were these late Josephine letters revealed or published? No researcher paid attention to these shaking words before Mr. Klapproth? -- "Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent."

John Klapproth is German and saw the documents in German- many have not been published in English, that's why they are not so well known. Really....you ought to get his book sunlover if you wish to know about Josephine!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethovens-O.../dp/1461186382

[thesunlover]

I am going to order the book.

I still don’t understand why this extremely important conversation record had never been cited by other Beethoven researchers until Klapproth did it.

[AeolianHarp]

I am going to order the book.

I still don’t understand why this extremely important conversation record had never been cited by other Beethoven researchers until Klapproth did it.

Rita Steblin has- also a German speaker- she cited this in her book published in 2007- with the original German. This is what I like about John Klapproth- he has all the German texts he refers to in the book for you to see. He even explains the translations.

Much of Beethoven's conversation books have not been translated into English nor has his Tagebuch ( diary) so much of the contents have not been made known to English speakers. I agree it would be nice to have the full texts translated so as to debunk that Antonie lie once and for all!

I am glad you are going to get the book- but I must tell you it is so very sad to read. I am still reading it myself- onto the Reflections and appendices now. It took me awhile to be able to read it.

[AeolianHarp]

I'm learning Italian - better climate!

LOL..but German means you can read the Conversation books and the Tagebuch..

[AeolianHarp]

I haven't seen any letter Beethoven wrote to Guicciardi. Can someone help?

Sorry I forgot to reply to this sunlover- I don't know if he wrote any, never seen any, unless they haven't survived.

[thesunlover]

"Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent."

A question raised from this record: How do we know the child (a girl or a boy?) mentioned here was not Karl Josef, Antonie's last son born on March 8 1813? Did Karl Josef have musical talent?

[thesunlover]

Any idea in which book Steblin cites those words?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_St...ject_Beethoven

Rita Steblin has- also a German speaker- she cited this in her book published in 2007

[AeolianHarp]

Any idea in which book Steblin cites those words?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_St...ject_Beethoven

Rita Steblin, Auf diese Art mit A geht alles zugrunde. A New Look at Beethoven's Diary Entry and the Immortal Beloved, Bonner Beethoven-Studien 6 pp 147-180.

It is in German. Page 179 looks at the conversation book entry from mid December 1819.

Rita, as you will have seen is Canadian, but fluent in German.

[AeolianHarp]

"Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent."

A question raised from this record: How do we know the child (a girl or a boy?) mentioned here was not Karl Josef, Antonie's last son born on March 8 1813? Did Karl Josef have musical talent?

I have never read that Karl Josef had but read that Minona did. However musical talent is not always passed on- look at Ludwig's brothers! I don't think any of Mozart's children had it either.

[thesunlover]

Beethoven met his IB around beginning of July 1812. Karl was born on March 8, 1813 and Minona was born on April 9, 1813.

Unless Karl was an 8-month infant, Beethoven couldn't be his biological father. One month made big differences. Make sense?

[thesunlover]

Antonie made love with her husband in June 1812 (so they had Karl in March 1813). She then met Beethoven as IB in July, 1812.

That didn't make sense.

[AeolianHarp]

Antonie made love with her husband in June 1812 (so they had Karl in March 1813). She then met Beethoven as IB in July, 1812.
That didn't make sense.

Beethoven met his IB around beginning of July 1812. Karl was born on March 8, 1813 and Minona was born on April 9, 1813.

Unless Karl was an 8-month infant, Beethoven couldn't be his biological father. One month made big differences. Make sense?

Yes it does. I know babies can show no sign of appearing at their "due date" but I don't think they are a month late! And back then they had no safe methods of inducing births; indeed it can still be risky today.

[thesunlover]

Page 111 in Klapproth - Therese's diary:
Josephine is Tasso, so is Beethoven, her beautiful soul raises us to heaven: we must give her worldly food...
Recieved the letter from Beethoven. Wrote to Beethoven.....Josephine. Write history. Beethoven.

Therese also was keeping a note of where Beethoven was living so she could keep in touch with him as a go between between him and Josephine ( she was ill a lot and also Stackelberg kept coming and going)

Harp,
Which year is this part related to?

1818 Josephine wrote a letter on April 8th, when she was extremely ill, on Minona's fith birthday. Here is some of it:

I can only speak in a few words of that which the Spirit tells me in moments of calm...

I would not have written these fragments, had I not believed this way to answer to a request by you which must be dear to me after your last words-What your appearance arouses in my feelings- I cannot describe----
We all do not know, what we are doing, talking, what we are- the universe in our heart...is the starry sky....It seems to break within us, the axis, shattered, torn from its hinges, destroyed are we standing here-opposite each other...what we mutually destroyed within us-------it is standing before our inner eye...

Happy you are not------but deaf---busy with a stern glance beyond-and so calm-serene..in a state of negative happiness-the Book of Memories has many colours-you have browsed it frequently-viewed it-judged it-yourself- too...

Melting into one can happen only when first we have been melted with Eternity, with true sincerity this true desire, the more it purifies itself-this alone is union-forever-everything is like a shell; a form; a casing which...moves in a continuous line up to the last point-If the Spirit could reveal itself to you completely, due to its deficiencies it cannot-------


Like the IB letteer, Klapproth notes no addressee is made. There are similarities in themes here to the IB letter.

Why do you say "There are similarities in themes here to the IB letter", if the letter was written by Josephine, not Beethoven?

Thanks!

[thesunlover]

Rita Steblin, Auf diese Art mit A geht alles zugrunde. A New Look at Beethoven's Diary Entry and the Immortal Beloved, Bonner Beethoven-Studien 6 pp 147-180.
It is in German. Page 179 looks at the conversation book entry from mid December 1819.
Rita, as you will have seen is Canadian, but fluent in German.

What does this mean - "Auf diese Art mit A geht alles zugrunde" ?

Thanks!