When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[AeolianHarp]

This is also what I believe.

The 3 letters must had been delivered to their receiver. These kept in his desk were copies. It explains why there is no receiver's name on these letters.

Yes, makes sense.

[Peter]

No, I mean the one he kept in his desk was a draft and he wrote a neat copy to send. It makes perfect sense he'd want to keep a copy of such precious letters.

No it doesn't - these letters were written in haste as Beethoven actually makes clear and why then didn't he keep copies of his earlier letters to Josephine? The whole style of the letters is impulsive. They were most likely returned to him, especially if the recipient was as you say Josephine who would have been terrified of her husband finding them. More importantly though is the issue of 'sie' and 'du' which you still haven't answered yet!

[AeolianHarp]

No it doesn't - these letters were written in haste as Beethoven actually makes clear and why then didn't he keep copies of his earlier letters to Josephine? The whole style of the letters is impulsive. They were most likely returned to him, especially if the recipient was as you say Josephine who would have been terrified of her husband finding them. More importantly though is the issue of 'sie' and 'du' which you still haven't answered yet!

That's a point- maybe they were sent to him later on by Josephine when she heard Stacklenerg was returning. Klapproth also points out in his book that in the summer of 1812 there were gaps in Therese's and Josephine's diaries and that in Josephine's several pages were carefully cut out, so yes looks like they were keeping secrets.

Also in 1813 there are references in both Beethoven's and Therese's dairies about keeping silent. In 1814 Therese states she got a letter from Beethoven as well. There are other later references to letters between the three of them. So this was an ongoing contact for a few years.It looks like Therese was the go between.

Interestingly, Klapproth thinks the IB letter was never sent, but more in the vein of the Heiligenstdat testament- an outpouring of feelings.

Why did he use du in the IB letters? I did answer it I think- as it shows greater intimacy and strength of feelings- Gerhard von Breuning, in the final few days, called Beethoven du to show his affection. I don't see any mystery there- du being used when loving someone and knowing/feeling you are going to lose them.

[Peter]

That's a point- maybe they were sent to him later on by Josephine when she heard Stacklenerg was returning. Klapproth also points out in his book that in the summer of 1812 there were gaps in Therese's and Josephine's diaries and that in Josephine's several pages were carefully cut out, so yes looks like they were keeping secrets.

Also in 1813 there are references in both Beethoven's and Therese's dairies about keeping silent. In 1814 Therese states she got a letter from Beethoven as well. There are other later references to letters between the three of them. So this was an ongoing contact for a few years.It looks like Therese was the go between.

Interestingly, Klapproth thinks the IB letter was never sent, but more in the vein of the Heiligenstdat testament- an outpouring of feelings.

Why did he use du in the IB letters? I did answer it I think- as it shows greater intimacy and strength of feelings- Gerhard von Breuning, in the final few days, called Beethoven du to show his affection. I don't see any mystery there- du being used when loving someone and knowing/feeling you are going to lose them.

I'm sure the letters were sent for the same reason I'm sure they were not a draft, Beethoven's sense of urgency so as not to miss the post. I know the significance of 'du' - the point is that in all 13 letters to Josephine when he was expressing his love 1805-9, he uses 'sie' NOT the 'du' found in the letters to the IB.

You mentioned that there are letters after 1809 and I think it would be interesting to know their content, tone and what form of address he uses to her in them? I ask simply because I'm not aware of these letters and they must have been a recent discovery?

[AeolianHarp]

I'm sure the letters were sent for the same reason I'm sure they were not a draft, Beethoven's sense of urgency so as not to miss the post. I know the significance of 'du' - the point is that in all 13 letters to Josephine when he was expressing his love 1805-9, he uses 'sie' NOT the 'du' found in the letters to the IB.

Because the IB letter was his deepest feelings, and of great importance to him, so the use of the more intimate du highlights this.

You mentioned that there are letters after 1809 and I think it would be interesting to know their content, tone and what form of address he uses to her in them? I ask simply because I'm not aware of these letters and they must have been a recent discovery?

Not exactly a recent discovery but less known to those who don't speak German and Klapproth is German and has seen the diaries and documents.


Page 111 in Klapproth - Therese's diary:

Josephine is Tasso, so is Beethoven, her beautiful soul raises us to heaven: we must give her worldly food...
Recieved the letter from Beethoven. Wrote to Beethoven.....Josephine. Write history. Beethoven.


Therese also was keeping a note of where Beethoven was living so she could keep in touch with him as a go between between him and Josephine ( she was ill a lot and also Stackelberg kept coming and going)

Page 125 Klapproth:

Baden 1816- a meeting between Beethoven and Therese and quite possibly Josephine- she was there and records have showed that- she was registered as a spa guest on 30th April. Beethoven's diary notes:

...not to P-t, but with P.-discuss the best way how to arrange it.

On June 2nd Josephine made an application for a passport to travel to Pyrmont, but had to change plans.

So they ended up in Baden instead.

P= Pepi, Josephone's nickname.

not to P-t =Pyrmont.

A few years later Karl wrote in one of the conversation books:

In Helena, Baden, you were walking with a woman arm in arm. Who was that?

Klapproth's book, page 140:

1818 Josephine wrote a letter on April 8th, when she was extremely ill, on Minona's fith birthday. Here is some of it:


I can only speak in a few words of that which the Spirit tells me in moments of calm...

I would not have written these fragments, had I not believed this way to answer to a request by you which must be dear to me after your last words-What your appearance arouses in my feelings- I cannot describe----
We all do not know, what we are doing, talking, what we are- the universe in our heart...is the starry sky....It seems to break within us, the axis, shattered, torn from its hinges, destroyed are we standing here-opposite each other...what we mutually destroyed within us-------it is standing before our inner eye...

Happy you are not------but deaf---busy with a stern glance beyond-and so calm-serene..in a state of negative happiness-the Book of Memories has many colours-you have browsed it frequently-viewed it-judged it-yourself- too...

Melting into one can happen only when first we have been melted with Eternity, with true sincerity this true desire, the more it purifies itself-this alone is union-forever-everything is like a shell; a form; a casing which...moves in a continuous line up to the last point-If the Spirit could reveal itself to you completely, due to its deficiencies it cannot-------



Like the IB letteer, Klapproth notes no addressee is made. There are similarities in themes here to the IB letter.


Klapproth, page 144:

An entry in Beethoven's conversation book in mid December 1819:

Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent.


Klapproth notes that Minona was in Vienna with Stackleberg at this time and that maybe Beethoven mentioned a woman, but not her name to Oliva a good friend who would not gossip, about an unmamed woman who may have had his daughter ( and noone knew about Josephine but those concerned- the Brunsviks and him).

Coincidence..maybe maybe not.

[Peter]

Because the IB letter was his deepest feelings, and of great importance to him, so the use of the more intimate du highlights this.

I would have thought his feelings must have been just as deep at the time of the previous letters when I think we agree he wished to marry Josephine as Therese says 'the widow Deym'.

Klapproth, page 144:

An entry in Beethoven's conversation book in mid December 1819:

Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent.


Klapproth notes that Minona was in Vienna with Stackleberg at this time and that maybe Beethoven mentioned a woman, but not her name to Oliva a good friend who would not gossip, about an unmamed woman who may have had his daughter ( and noone knew about Josephine but those concerned- the Brunsviks and him).

Coincidence..maybe maybe not.

Thanks AeolianHarp for taking the trouble to post all those extracts which were very interesting - especially this last one which is quite extraordinary but needs some clarification. Who wrote those words in the conversation book, Oliva?

[AeolianHarp]

I would have thought his feelings must have been just as deep at the time of the previous letters when I think we agree he wished to marry Josephine as Therese says 'the widow Deym'.

Of course, but the IB letter is spiritual and special, so he may have felt moved to write du. In addition, Josephine was a widow when he wrote the earlier letters so using Sie may have been a mark of respect towards her.

Thanks AeolianHarp for taking the trouble to post all those extracts which were very interesting - especially this last one which is quite extraordinary but needs some clarification. Who wrote those words in the conversation book, Oliva?

Yes, it was Franz Oliver, who from 1809 often acted as unpaid secretary to Beethoven, he left for St. Petersberg in Dec 1820.

Here's a document he helped Beethoven with:

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...eter=&_seite=1

Beethoven's Tagebuch is still not fully published in English, so really only a German speaker can read the whole book.

[Peter]

Yes, it was Franz Oliver, who from 1809 often acted as unpaid secretary to Beethoven, he left for St. Petersberg in Dec 1820.

This is very interesting and does indeed make a much stronger case for Minona than your previous posts!

Ok, regarding Oliva - they had a pretty serious quarrel back in 1811 and in 1813 Beethoven wrote to Count Brunsvik 'That scoundrel Oliva....is going to Hungary. Don't have much to do with him. I am delighted that our association, which was brought about by necessity, will thus be completely terminated.' Now obviously they did become friends again later as Oliva acted on behalf of the nephew Karl, however it does raise the question would Beethoven have trusted this man to tell him these things?

Now to the words 'Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent.' Why should the husband recognise his child as Beethoven's because Beethoven is always talking about 'that women'? To whom was he always talking, the husband?

Are there any further entries by Oliva that provide more context for that entry?

[AeolianHarp]

This is very interesting and does indeed make a much stronger case for Minona than your previous posts!

Well John Klapproth has done a lot of research; his book is interesting and really sad to read.

Ok, regarding Oliva - they had a pretty serious quarrel back in 1811 and in 1813 Beethoven wrote to Count Brunsvik 'That scoundrel Oliva....is going to Hungary. Don't have much to do with him. I am delighted that our association, which was brought about by necessity, will thus be completely terminated.' Now obviously they did become friends again later as Oliva acted on behalf of the nephew Karl, however it does raise the question would Beethoven have trusted this man to tell him these things?

I didn't know about the quarrel, but I mean no disrepect to Ludwig; he was known to have a few quarrels and misunderstandings with people he was even very close to, so that in itself doesn't necessarily mean Franz was untrustworthy, but I do take your point. Maybe Ludwig was very uspet at finding out about Minona, and Franz noticed he looked really uspet and asked him why and he mentioned something, but didn't obviously reveal the names. But for Franz to write this- some conversation did go on.

I also raised the question earlier about why he'd have mentioned the love of his life to Fanny's father- that seemed too personal a thing to reveal to someone he didn't know that well. But again, no names were given.

Now to the words 'Because you are always talking about that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent.' Why should the husband recognise his child as Beethoven's because Beethoven is always talking about 'that women'? To whom was he always talking, the husband?

I understand it as this Peter:
Beethoven was talking a lot about a woman who has a child who shows musical ability to Franz and hypothetically the husband could recognise in the child's talent something of Beethoven in this child. Perhaps the child resembles Beethoven not just in musical ability but also in character and looks. So Franz is saying the husband might be able to see this. Also, that if other people could hear Beethoven's talk of this child the husband might suspect. Interestingly, in Beethoven's diaries and letters around this time he wrote of keeping silent and even indicated a few times he might be forced to leave the country.

Are there any further entries by Oliva that provide more context for that entry?

Now that I don't know- Klapproth doesn't mention any more entries about this conversation book. But there surely must have been if Franz writes "you are always talking abut that woman." They may however, have not survived.

I am inclined to think if Minona was Ludwig's daughter he found out not right away but maybe when Minona was a little older- not when she was a baby- maybe the sisters kept the birth secret from Ludwig because at that time as Stackleberg was back ( when she came back from Teplitz); Klapproth is of the view from reading their documents that Josephine had to put on a show of trying to reconcile with Stackleberg for the children's sake and that they drew up a new marriage contract ( what they expected of each other) so perhaps she had to grit her teeth and be once more intimate with Stackelberg- so maybe even Josephine was unsure of who the father of Minona was when she was first born but as she grew older it became obvious ( by how she looked) that she was not Stackleberg's. But to have told Ludwig this with Stackleberg on the scene would not have caused a happy outcome.Ludwig also was concerned about Karl, so they may not have wanted to add to his troubles.

[Peter]

Yes it certainly makes for a strong case, much stronger than Antonie Brentano! I always thought Josephine was a highly plausible candidate for the IB but I was more sceptical about Minona. I suppose the only way to be certain would be DNA testing but that isn't likely to happen and rightly so - their secret should remain just that.

[AeolianHarp]

Yes it certainly makes for a strong case, much stronger than Antonie Brentano!

Yes, how anyone can believe that I don't know!

I always thought Josephine was a highly plausible candidate for the IB but I was more sceptical about Minona. I suppose the only way to be certain would be DNA testing but that isn't likely to happen and rightly so - their secret should remain just that.

Yes.

[thesunlover]

Anyone ever read this?

Tyson, Beethoven to the Countress Susanna Guicciardi (Giulietta's mother), A New Letter's in Beethoven Studies, London, 1974, By David Wyn Jones

[AeolianHarp]

Anyone ever read this?

Tyson, Beethoven to the Countress Susanna Guicciardi (Giulietta's mother), A New Letter's in Beethoven Studies, London, 1974, By David Wyn Jones

No- but you know many of the Beethovenian documents haven't been translated into English, never mind published in English.

[Fredrika]

About the sie and du forms, I must correct one aspect:

Beethoven did use the informal du in the letters addressed to Josephine, but he did this only once and it to me at least seems almost to happen by mistake, that is, his feelings were so intense he slipped from etiquette and probably was again in such a haste he didn't even read the letter properly through before sending it...

Here is the mentioned excerpt from the letter in question, written already in April 1805 (a year later count Deym had died):

"...leb wohl Engel - meines Herzens - meines Lebens."

translation:

"Farewell (2nd person singular form) Angel - of my heart - of my life."

The "correct" form when addressing formally would have been leben Sie wohl.



Klapproth discussed this in his book (pages 40-41). He also points out that it took several years for Antonie Brentano to learn to call Franz by "du", and taking into account their marriage indeed was a happy one, it goes to show how accustomed people of that period were with this type of etiquette, and in written language the loyalty towards it was even greater. So, it's quite clear this form would not have been used in a letter between people who are said to be only platonic friends.


Another interesting little snippet is that one said to be solid proof for Antonie being the IB is simply because she was in Prague 1812- but how can we say Josephine wasn't? She wrote in her diary in June 1812 "I want to see Liebert in Prague" (Liebert = beloved -but I don't think this form is in use anymore) right after a passage where she had dissed Stackelberg to have "no empathy for the ones in the need of it". This was first found out by an excellent scholar, Rita Steblin, in 2007.

[AeolianHarp]

Thanks for that Fredrika-my German isn't good enough yet to have noticed that. And I always wondered who Liebert was! So it means beloved..oh what a nice word for beloved- I like that.

I am presuming Rita Steblin is a German speaker, she is indeed a good scholar.