When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[Peter]

Well they were writing letters and keepng on contact after Deym died on and off for many years, so there was always something between them.


But the feelings never died Peter- that is what I am pointing out.

Yes the letters continued for sure until 1809 and who can say what the feelings were then? From their last definitely proven correspondence he sounds hurt and she sounds guilty.

Does it matter? Only in that when it is put about Beethoven cheated with his best friend's wife - which is a slur on his character....we sort of deviated to discussing Countess Brunsvik.

Well with Josephine he would still have been having an adulterous affair in 1812 (regardless of the character of Stackleberg) and have fathered a child out of wedlock which would be no less a slur - Not these days of course as no one has any moral standards any more, but I think Beethoven certainly did!

[AeolianHarp]

Yes the letters continued for sure until 1809 and who can say what the feelings were then? From their last definitely proven correspondence he sounds hurt and she sounds guilty.

There's letters later than that. Well of course they would have those feelings when they were prevented from being together.

Well with Josephine he would still have been having an adulterous affair in 1812 (regardless of the character of Stackleberg) and have fathered a child out of wedlock which would be no less a slur - Not these days of course as no one has any moral standards any more, but I think Beethoven certainly did!

I understand you Peter, but it seems to have been that one time in Teplitz, which wasn't exactly planned. But I am not about to judge them for this; after all they were done a terrible wrong by the mother and society's rules, and is is not as though this was a happy marriage Josephine was in- it was a disastrous one that ruined her.

Yes Beethoven did indeed have high moral standards evidenced by the fact he accepted her first marriage to Deym, and didn't try to coax Josephine into an affair ( this marriage to Deym was content enough by all accounts) which many men would have done. But Stackelberg was abusive and she was probably hoping to find a way to divorce him.

[Peter]

There's letters later than that. Well of course they would have those feelings when they were prevented from being together.

Interesting, I thought there were 13 letters from this period, I wasn't aware of others but obviously you have newer information - when were these published and what is the content? Also when was the last and did they use the informal 'du' or the formal 'sie' as found in his other letters to her? Also I was under the impression that she didn't completely separate from Stackleberg until 1813?

I understand you Peter, but it seems to have been that one time in Teplitz, which wasn't exactly planned. But I am not about to judge them for this; after all they were done a terrible wrong by the mother and society's rules, and is is not as though this was a happy marriage Josephine was in- it was a disastrous one that ruined her.

Yes Beethoven did indeed have high moral standards evidenced by the fact he accepted her first marriage to Deym, and didn't try to coax Josephine into an affair ( this marriage to Deym was content enough by all accounts) which many men would have done. But Stackelberg was abusive and she was probably hoping to find a way to divorce him.

Absolutely I'm not seeking to pass judgement, especially on an event that I'm not totally convinced about, but you can't have it both ways - adultery is adultery regardless of the circumstances! So there can't be one rule for Brentano and another for Brunsvik. Josephine had showed remarkable restraint and self control for many years, but you're saying that Beethoven took advantage of her emotional weakness and ended up getting her pregnant - it didn't really help matters if that is truly what happened!

[AeolianHarp]

Interesting, I thought there were 13 letters from this period, I wasn't aware of others but obviously you have newer information - when were these published and what is the content? Also when was the last and did they use the informal 'du' or the formal 'sie' as found in his other letters to her? Also I was under the impression that she didn't completely separate from Stackleberg until 1813?

There's a letter in Klapproth's book Josephine wrote when she was ill in bed- a later one, obviously to Beethoven as she makes reference to his deafness. Not sure it was ever sent though. Offhand I don't know the last time du was used instead of sie, but I don't think that matters- maybe that was used in respect.I'll have to look though the book at the weekend and get back to you. I have a Beethoven ceiling which is worrying me- water is leaking into my kitchen from the bathroom and the man isn't coming til Tuesday!

Absolutely I'm not seeking to pass judgement, especially on an event that I'm not totally convinced about, but you can't have it both ways - adultery is adultery regardless of the circumstances! So there can't be one rule for Brentano and another for Brunsvik. Josephine had showed remarkable restraint and self control for many years, but you're saying that Beethoven took advantage of her emotional weakness and ended up getting her pregnant - it didn't really help matters if that is truly what happened!

I meant myself judging them not you Peter. Things are not always so black and white- who's to say it's wrong for two people in love to be together when one was in an abusive marriage she wanted to get out of? And said couple were forced apart causing them immense heartbreak? That's what's wrong.

Self control can break after years of strain and heartbreak- can any of us say we wouldn't have done the same?

It's not like it was planned to happen that way- but love happened.

Maybe Minona wasn't his daughter, maybe she was- the Brunsviks kept this secret.

[Peter]

There's a letter in Klapproth's book Josephine wrote when she was ill in bed- a later one, obviously to Beethoven as she makes reference to his deafness. Not sure it was ever sent though. Offhand I don't know the last time du was used instead of sie, but I don't think that matters- maybe that was used in respect.I'll have to look though the book at the weekend and get back to you. I have a Beethoven ceiling which is worrying me- water is leaking into my kitchen from the bathroom and the man isn't coming til Tuesday!

Well it matters because in all correspondence I know of to Josephine he uses 'sie' but in the IB letters he uses 'du' and this is significant. Sorry to hear about the 'Beethoven ceiling' - he's not living above you by any chance?!!

It's not like it was planned to happen that way- but love happened.

Maybe Minona wasn't his daughter, maybe she was- the Brunsviks kept this secret.

Yes but their love was not spontaneous and surely would have not been subject to impulse after all those years, especially under such circumstances? Beethoven himself urges caution, calm and reflection in the IB letters. I can accept Josephine coming to Beethoven out of the desperation of her disastrous marriage and Beethoven's response to her that he will do all in his power to see they can live together - circumstances obviously prevented this. Minona though is going a step further and it's there I have real problems.

For one thing how does Beethoven come out of it? If he was the father, was he unaware of this fact? If he wasn't unaware why did he allow Stackleberg to take his daughter away from Josephine? It can't have been to protect Josephine as she had already lost her children and money - surely the honourable thing would have been to stand by her and the child no matter what? If he was unaware of the fact, why? Why would Josephine or Therese have kept this from him?

[AeolianHarp]

I haven't seen any letter Beethoven wrote to Guicciardi. Can someone help?

I don't think he wrote any sunlover- cannot remember seeing any.

[AeolianHarp]

Well it matters because in all correspondence I know of to Josephine he uses 'sie' but in the IB letters he uses 'du' and this is significant.

Yes, who knows why he did that...but I think the letter in his desk was a draft- it was untidily written so maybe he wrote a neater one and changed things in it and sent it to her. But maybe the sie was used to highlight the seriousness of the letter?

Sorry to hear about the 'Beethoven ceiling' - he's not living above you by any chance?!!

Well if he is then he's living in my bathroom and availing himself of my bath!
It is a problem allright- got a pan on the windowsill to catch the drips and cardboard on the floor!

Yes but their love was not spontaneous and surely would have not been subject to impulse after all those years, especially under such circumstances? Beethoven himself urges caution, calm and reflection in the IB letters.

I have just read them again- they are so beautiful and heartfelt.... he does say to remain calm but also that he will try to "arrange it with you and me that I can live with you. What a life!!!" So they were hoping it seems they could find a way, which leads me to think that Josephine was hoping to divorce Stackelberg.

I can accept Josephine coming to Beethoven out of the desperation of her disastrous marriage and Beethoven's response to her that he will do all in his power to see they can live together

Yes, he said that in his letter.

circumstances obviously prevented this.

Sadly so.

Minona though is going a step further and it's there I have real problems.For one thing how does Beethoven come out of it? If he was the father, was he unaware of this fact? If he wasn't unaware why did he allow Stackleberg to take his daughter away from Josephine? It can't have been to protect Josephine as she had already lost her children and money - surely the honourable thing would have been to stand by her and the child no matter what? If he was unaware of the fact, why? Why would Josephine or Therese have kept this from him?

Maybe he knew maybe he didn't- difficult questions, yes Peter. It is such a shame as he wanted children of his own.

[Peter]

Yes, who knows why he did that...but I think the letter in his desk was a draft- it was untidily written so maybe he wrote a neater one and changed things in it and sent it to her. But maybe the sie was used to highlight the seriousness of the letter?

It's the other way round - Du was used in the IB letters but Sie in all the other letters written to Josephine at the height of his passion for her after the death of Deym.

Maybe he knew maybe he didn't- difficult questions, yes Peter. It is such a shame as he wanted children of his own.

Well this is a real problem for the Minona theory. If Beethoven didn't know we have to believe he was completely naive and ignorant of Josephine's pregnancy and the subsequent birth. If he did know, we have only to see how he fought tooth and nail for the guardianship of his nephew to realise he would never have allowed a man like Stackleberg to have taken his daughter from him and the women he loved.

[AeolianHarp]

It's the other way round - Du was used in the IB letters but Sie in all the other letters written to Josephine at the height of his passion for her after the death of Deym.

That's what I sort of meant- whatever was used had a meaning- du was used for the intimacy of the feelings expressed in the letter.

Well this is a real problem for the Minona theory. If Beethoven didn't know we have to believe he was completely naive and ignorant of Josephine's pregnancy and the subsequent birth. If he did know, we have only to see how he fought tooth and nail for the guardianship of his nephew to realise he would never have allowed a man like Stackleberg to have taken his daughter from him and the women he loved.

Yes, maybe that is why the Brunsvik's never told him- they knew what it would lead to and perhaps might have made things worse if he had known. So I am inclined to think he didn't know, or if he ddi find out Stackleberg threatened to hurt Josephine in some way, like having her put away in an asylum or taking her to court and scandalising her- he was not above doing this. So some sort of blackmail- there is something cryptic in one of Beethoven's diary entries relating to Stackleberg. Rememeber Stackleberg had far more social power than Beethoven and Josephine.

[EternaLisa]

If the letter was a draft, will anyone for argument sake, explain why would he have retained the draft for 25 years?
xoxox
E

[Peter]

If the letter was a draft, will anyone for argument sake, explain why would he have retained the draft for 25 years?
xoxox
E

I don't think it was a draft. In one of the letters he says 'Angel, I have just heard that the mailcoach goes every day - therefore I must close at once so that you may receive the letter at once'.

You don't write that with a draft!

[EternaLisa]

I don't think it was a draft. In one of the letters he says 'Angel, I have just heard that the mailcoach goes every day - therefore I must close at once so that you may receive the letter at once'.

You don't write that with a draft!

That may be the best answer-let's see if --IF-- anyone can top it
thanks
E

[Peter]

That's what I sort of meant- whatever was used had a meaning- du was used for the intimacy of the feelings expressed in the letter.

Yes well it would be useful to know which form of address he used in the letters that you say exist after 1809 because up till then he always wrote to her with the formal 'sie'.

Yes, maybe that is why the Brunsvik's never told him- they knew what it would lead to and perhaps might have made things worse if he had known. So I am inclined to think he didn't know, or if he ddi find out Stackleberg threatened to hurt Josephine in some way, like having her put away in an asylum or taking her to court and scandalising her- he was not above doing this. So some sort of blackmail- there is something cryptic in one of Beethoven's diary entries relating to Stackleberg. Rememeber Stackleberg had far more social power than Beethoven and Josephine.

Yes and maybe they never told him because Minona wasn't Beethoven's daughter!

[AeolianHarp]

I don't think it was a draft. In one of the letters he says 'Angel, I have just heard that the mailcoach goes every day - therefore I must close at once so that you may receive the letter at once'.

You don't write that with a draft!

No, I mean the one he kept in his desk was a draft and he wrote a neat copy to send. It makes perfect sense he'd want to keep a copy of such precious letters.

[thesunlover]

This is also what I believe.

The 3 letters must had been delivered to their receiver. These kept in his desk were copies. It explains why there is no receiver's name on these letters.

No, I mean the one he kept in his desk was a draft and he wrote a neat copy to send. It makes perfect sense he'd want to keep a copy of such precious letters.