When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[Peter]

Stackelberg left because they were not getting on- he was a bully and treated the children and Josephine horribly- this is documented by Therese and other family documents- no mention whatsoever is made of another man- and they made plenty of mentions regarding Andrian who she later got involved with, so I doubt there was another man.

Nor did they refer to Beethoven or Minona's illegitimacy!

That's not excatly what she said....
I know he was a mature, caring man of 42, but that was not the intention- for a child to be born. Possibly too, given the less reliable methods of contraception back then, something failed there. And maybe meeting after all that time, their love overcame logic- that happens to many adults. To be denied to express love for someone for 13 years...that cannot be easy can it?
And here's another thought, maybe Josephine wanted to have Beethoven's baby.

It's quite clear what she meant! If Josephine is the person he wrote the IB letters to, it wasn't love on her part for sure which is why nothing came of it - it was an hysterical ill thought out response to a desperate situation.

[AeolianHarp]

Nor did they refer to Beethoven or Minona's illegitimacy!

It was hinted at Peter...

It's quite clear what she meant!

Is it indeed..!!!.have you not read Klapproth's book then? Seen the original German?

If Josephine is the person he wrote the IB letters to, it wasn't love on her part for sure which is why nothing came of it - it was an hysterical ill thought out response to a desperate situation.

I have to disagree there Peter- when she was forced to marry Count Deym she was distraught as she wanted to marry Beethoven...have you not read what Therese said about how Josephine and Beethoven adored each other?! Nothing "came of" their love affair as the mother banned Beethoven from coming into the house!!!

And to whom do you refer to with :

it was an hysterical ill thought out response to a desperate situation.

[Peter]

It was hinted at Peter...





Is it indeed..!!!.have you not read Klapproth's book then? Seen the original German?

Unfortunately I'm not fluent in German so that would be a pointless exercise, but the translation I have by Albrecht reads 'this preference that you granted me, the pleasure of your acquaintance, would have been the finest jewel of my life if you had loved me less sensually.' I think that is quite clear, nor is it the only time she made such comments.

I have to disagree there Peter- when she was forced to marry Count Deym she was distraught as she wanted to marry Beethoven...have you not read what Therese said about how Josephine and Beethoven adored each other?! Nothing "came of" their love affair as the mother banned Beethoven from coming into the house!!!

Therese was herself pretty infatuated with Beethoven! I don't know where is your source for claiming Josephine wished to marry Beethoven? Certainly Therese thought they should have, but that is not the same thing.

And to whom do you refer to with :

it was an hysterical ill thought out response to a desperate situation.

Josephine of course - she was obviously in a highly emotional state of distress at the time. I still agree with you that Beethoven's IB letters could have been intended for her, BUT not that the relationship was consummated. Beethoven's letters were an attempt to calm her and reassure her, but obviously with a cooler head and time to think it all through they agreed it was not possible or perhaps even desirable?

Why would Minona have remained silent throughout her life if she believed herself to be the daughter of Beethoven? Did she not suspect? Or was she deliberately kept in ignorance by Therese? Therese lived long enough and was intimate with her sister to have known the truth and I would have thought she would have told her niece of this if it were true.

[AeolianHarp]

Unfortunately I'm not fluent in German so that would be a pointless exercise, but the translation I have by Albrecht reads 'this preference that you granted me, the pleasure of your acquaintance, would have been the finest jewel of my life if you had loved me less sensually.' I think that is quite clear, nor is it the only time she made such comments.

I'm not either but John Klapproth is and he has the German documents right next to the English translations and explains what they all mean. Josephine meant that if the love had been platonic it would have been easier for them both, not that she didn't love him. She wrote him quite a few letters telling him she loved him.

Therese was herself pretty infatuated with Beethoven! I don't know where is your source for claiming Josephine wished to marry Beethoven? Certainly Therese thought they should have, but that is not the same thing.

If Therese was infatuated then all the more reason not to state that Beethoven and her sister were in love. The fact that Josephine burst into tears at being forced to marry Deym when she all along loved Beethoven shows that she wished to be Beethoven's wife not Deym's. She also made comments about not being able to do what they wished in her letters to Beethoven after Deym died. Platonic friends do not need to write such things.

Josephine of course - she was obviously in a highly emotional state of distress at the time. I still agree with you that Beethoven's IB letters could have been intended for her, BUT not that the relationship was consummated. Beethoven's letters were an attempt to calm her and reassure her, but obviously with a cooler head and time to think it all through they agreed it was not possible or perhaps even desirable?

They knew it could not be because of the children- she'd have lost them but tragically she lost them anyway as Stackleberg took them ( and her money which Beethoven would never have done)- so she may as well have married Beethoven and been much happier!

Why would Minona have remained silent throughout her life if she believed herself to be the daughter of Beethoven? Did she not suspect? Or was she deliberately kept in ignorance by Therese? Therese lived long enough and was intimate with her sister to have known the truth and I would have thought she would have told her niece of this if it were true.

I doubt Minona knew- but if she had the last thing she would have done was to tell people- the Brunsviks would not have wanted this known. In fact Beethoven and Josephine's love was not made public knowledge until the 1950s.

[Peter]

I'm not either but John Klapproth is and he has the German documents right next to the English translations and explains what they all mean. Josephine meant that if the love had been platonic it would have been easier for them both, not that she didn't love him. She wrote him quite a few letters telling him she loved him.

Yes she expressed her love but she also made it clear why it had to be platonic - 'I would have to break sacred bonds if I were to give heed to your desires'.

The fact that Josephine burst into tears at being forced to marry Deym when she all along loved Beethoven shows that she wished to be Beethoven's wife not Deym's.

Yes you're probably right - she certainly had no wish to marry Deym and was under her mother's will.

They knew it could not be because of the children- she'd have lost them but tragically she lost them anyway as Stackleberg took them ( and her money which Beethoven would never have done)- so she may as well have married Beethoven and been much happier!

Yes again this is possible - but she would have been risking that by having an affair in any case. I'm sure you've read more of the recent documents than I have, but I don't think she was divorced from Stackelberg, yet presumably had Minona been Beethoven's he would have had grounds for such action? Strange also that he wanted her back in 1815 to live in Estonia but she refused with the consequent loss of her children. I assume he took Minona with him and this is again strange if he knew her not to be his?

[AeolianHarp]

Originally Posted by AeolianHarp
I'm not either but John Klapproth is and he has the German documents right next to the English translations and explains what they all mean. Josephine meant that if the love had been platonic it would have been easier for them both, not that she didn't love him. She wrote him quite a few letters telling him she loved him.

Yes she expressed her love but she also made it clear why it had to be platonic - 'I would have to break sacred bonds if I were to give heed to your desires'.

Yes, true, but that doesn't mean she wasn't in love- just means that to be married wasn't allowed- difference in social class, losing her children, mother's disapproval etc. The sacred bonds were her children and the desires meant wish to be married.


The fact that Josephine burst into tears at being forced to marry Deym when she all along loved Beethoven shows that she wished to be Beethoven's wife not Deym's.

Yes you're probably right - she certainly had no wish to marry Deym and was under her mother's will.

But that turned out ok as much as it could be in that Deym was kind to her, but he wasn't totally honest and said he had more money than he actually had and the mother was annoyed with Deym when she found out. To Beethoven's credit he was able to be on friendly terms with Deym after the marriage and carried on giving Josephine piano lessons- that shows great strength of character and maturity- I admire him for that. Many men would have gone off in a jealous sulk, or pressured Josephine for a sneaky affair.




They knew it could not be because of the children- she'd have lost them but tragically she lost them anyway as Stackleberg took them ( and her money which Beethoven would never have done)- so she may as well have married Beethoven and been much happier!

Yes again this is possible - but she would have been risking that by having an affair in any case. I'm sure you've read more of the recent documents than I have, but I don't think she was divorced from Stackelberg, yet presumably had Minona been Beethoven's he would have had grounds for such action? Strange also that he wanted her back in 1815 to live in Estonia but she refused with the consequent loss of her children. I assume he took Minona with him and this is again strange if he knew her not to be his?

Stackleberg was a control freak and wanted her money and to make her suffer. He must have known Minona wasn't his- she wasn't intimate with him so he must have known Josephine had been intimate with another man. I expect Josephine refused to tell anyone (except Therese) who Minona's father was and Stackelberg took the baby as punishment- but also by this time Josephine was having a breakdown of some kind, and not really able to care for the baby.
I really feel for her- she seemed a lovely woman and deserved so much better.

[EternaLisa]

However she does not meet the criteria of Beethoven's 1816 letter when he refers to having met someone 5 years earlier who was the greatest love of his life, i.e The Immortal beloved - Beethoven had known Josephine since 1799.

Yeah...

I mean, yes.

xoxox
E.L.

[EternaLisa]

It is true Fanny isn't that reliable a witness and could indeed have got her facts mixed - I think she heard something, but as you say she was at a distance and may not have had the full picture.

I've always wondered why people have it in their heads that Fanny is not a reliable source just because she was infatuated with Beethoven

How does that invalidate what she wrote-even though it is presumed that she may not have had the full picture--people--even Beethoven, didn't always record what they thought or said-and still don't....

Perhaps historical record doesn't have the full picture as a result...so then, neither do we, when we canvass all that information...

xoxox
E

[EternaLisa]

Well that's speculation and actually I don't think reading her account that it sounds fanciful - the date for one thing relates pretty well with the Immortal beloved letters.

True, and on top of that...it's not 100% firm that 1812 is the actual date. It's just that for many people, it's more easily believable than anything else, and well, people tend to want to take the easiest way out of a dilemma-esp when the impossibly probable gets in the way, because the "impossibly probable" just means more work with no end in sight.

xoxox
PHX

[EternaLisa]

Nothing "came of" their love affair as the mother banned Beethoven from coming into the house!!!

So, are we to presume that Josie didn't know her way out of the house and onto all the backwood deer trails--esp when mom was fast asleep? She didn't dare or know how to 'sneak'?

And they had the same sleep schedule?



xoxox,
me

{{{{{{{and to all a starry starry sweet restful night....}}}}

[thesunlover]

I haven't seen any letter Beethoven wrote to Guicciardi. Can someone help?

[Peter]

[QUOTE=AeolianHarp;64269][I]Originally Posted by AeolianHarp




Yes, true, but that doesn't mean she wasn't in love- just means that to be married wasn't allowed- difference in social class, losing her children, mother's disapproval etc. The sacred bonds were her children and the desires meant wish to be married.


Absolutely, I've never denied that they loved each other at this earlier date which we are talking about here 1804/5, but it was platonic for all sorts of reasons - this is fact.

The fact that Josephine burst into tears at being forced to marry Deym when she all along loved Beethoven shows that she wished to be Beethoven's wife not Deym's.

Again we're talking different dates - this is earlier still (1799) and they had known each other about 6 weeks when Josephine married Deym - it is highly unlikely that she wished to marry Beethoven at this stage when she hardly knew him - her tears were because she didn't wish to marry Deym, not the same thing at all! She was emotionally confused.

Stackleberg was a control freak and wanted her money and to make her suffer. He must have known Minona wasn't his- she wasn't intimate with him so he must have known Josephine had been intimate with another man. I expect Josephine refused to tell anyone (except Therese) who Minona's father was and Stackelberg took the baby as punishment- but also by this time Josephine was having a breakdown of some kind, and not really able to care for the baby.
I really feel for her- she seemed a lovely woman and deserved so much better.

Yes I've no doubt Stackleberg was an unpleasant character but we must also remember the information we have is one-sided, from the Brunsvik perspective. I'm still not convinced by Stackleberg's taking Minona knowing her to be the child of another man - do we know much about Minona's childhood because under these circumstances one would have expected it to be pretty awful? Surely had he wished to punish her he could have done it more effectively by divorce and shaming her publicly? In 1815 when he asked her to join him in Estonia he had no need of her money as he had come into his own inheritance.

[AeolianHarp]

Absolutely, I've never denied that they loved each other at this earlier date which we are talking about here 1804/5, but it was platonic for all sorts of reasons - this is fact.

The facts- existing letters and diaries from that time show otherwise Peter.
It might have been physically platonic, but in how they felt about each other it wasn't. Why else would Beethoven have been banned from the house? Why else would the family have been worried???- they knew he was about to propose ( I'm talking about after Deym died). The situation was called "dangerous" by her sister Charlotte and that her sister should be "on her guard" as did Therese who said that "her heart must have the strength to say no, a sad duty." Josephine also replied in her leters to him stating her love. Have you not read John Klapproth's book which has the documents in them?

Again we're talking different dates - this is earlier still (1799) and they had known each other about 6 weeks when Josephine married Deym - it is highly unlikely that she wished to marry Beethoven at this stage when she hardly knew him - her tears were because she didn't wish to marry Deym, not the same thing at all! She was emotionally confused.

Well maybe she wasn't thinking about marriage, but she had feelings for Beethoven, and people can actually fall in love from knowing each other 6 weeks! Even less time that that.

Yes I've no doubt Stackleberg was an unpleasant character but we must also remember the information we have is one-sided, from the Brunsvik perspective. I'm still not convinced by Stackleberg's taking Minona knowing her to be the child of another man - do we know much about Minona's childhood because under these circumstances one would have expected it to be pretty awful? Surely had he wished to punish her he could have done it more effectively by divorce and shaming her publicly? In 1815 when he asked her to join him in Estonia he had no need of her money as he had come into his own inheritance.

He got an inheritance in 1815. Oh he did shame her publically-he went to the police! Well people often use a child to punish the spouse, disgraceful but true. Minona wasn't his as he wasn't there to help her conceive this baby- so of course he knew Minona wasn't his.

Well all of Josephine's children suffered under Stackleberg who took them away from their mother. She was very ill- with what it is hard to know, but some kind of fever and mental exhaustion- so he took all the children, including Minona. He might have genuinely believed they'd be better off with him- but yet he didn't stay around them and parent them but dump them with his brother Otto and go off travelling.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Brunsvik

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Famille/F...ee-Minona.html

[Peter]

The facts- existing letters and diaries from that time show otherwise Peter.
It might have been physically platonic, but in how they felt about each other it wasn't. Why else would Beethoven have been banned from the house? Why else would the family have been worried???- they knew he was about to propose ( I'm talking about after Deym died). The situation was called "dangerous" by her sister Charlotte and that her sister should be "on her guard" as did Therese who said that "her heart must have the strength to say no, a sad duty." Josephine also replied in her leters to him stating her love. Have you not read John Klapproth's book which has the documents in them?

It's not a question of my reading the Klapproth book, but of you reading what I said!! I agree with you - after Deym's death their relationship was at it's height but there were no physical relations between them for the reasons you say. This much has been available long before Klapproth's book and I am perfectly familiar with the facts and letters! This is all a side issue in any case as it doesn't necessarily make her the Immortal beloved of 8 years later.

Well maybe she wasn't thinking about marriage, but she had feelings for Beethoven, and people can actually fall in love from knowing each other 6 weeks! Even less time that that.

Again her feelings for Beethoven in 1799 are nothing to do with 1812. We might just as well talk about Beethoven's feelings for her cousin Countess Guicciardi in 1800 which is what this thread is about!

He got an inheritance in 1815. Oh he did shame her publically-he went to the police! Well people often use a child to punish the spouse, disgraceful but true. Minona wasn't his as he wasn't there to help her conceive this baby- so of course he knew Minona wasn't his.

Well all of Josephine's children suffered under Stackleberg who took them away from their mother. She was very ill- with what it is hard to know, but some kind of fever and mental exhaustion- so he took all the children, including Minona. He might have genuinely believed they'd be better off with him- but yet he didn't stay around them and parent them but dump them with his brother Otto and go off travelling.

Yes but it doesn't mean Beethoven was definitely the father of Minona - only that you can present a case for it, but as in the case of Antonie Brentano it cannot be 100% stated as fact, only plausible. My position remains the same - I'm certain Antonie Brentano was not the IB, and I think it quite likely that it was Josephine - the fact is we may never know for certain, but does it matter in the end? We wouldn't be discussing any of these women if it wasn't for the music of Beethoven and it's that that is important.

[AeolianHarp]

It's not a question of my reading the Klapproth book, but of you reading what I said!! I agree with you - after Deym's death their relationship was at it's height but there were no physical relations between them for the reasons you say. This much has been available long before Klapproth's book and I am perfectly familiar with the facts and letters! This is all a side issue in any case as it doesn't necessarily make her the Immortal beloved of 8 years later.

Well they were writing letters and keepng on contact after Deym died on and off for many years, so there was always something between them.

Again her feelings for Beethoven in 1799 are nothing to do with 1812. We might just as well talk about Beethoven's feelings for her cousin Countess Guicciardi in 1800 which is what this thread is about!

But the feelings never died Peter- that is what I am pointing out.

Yes but it doesn't mean Beethoven was definitely the father of Minona - only that you can present a case for it, but as in the case of Antonie Brentano it cannot be 100% stated as fact, only plausible. My position remains the same - I'm certain Antonie Brentano was not the IB, and I think it quite likely that it was Josephine - the fact is we may never know for certain, but does it matter in the end? We wouldn't be discussing any of these women if it wasn't for the music of Beethoven and it's that that is important.

Does it matter? Only in that when it is put about Beethoven cheated with his best friend's wife - which is a slur on his character....we sort of deviated to discussing Countess Brunsvik.