When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[AeolianHarp]

Antonie was happliy married to Franz. Really, do read Klapproth's book ( although it is heartbreaking to read) Josephine was forced away from Ludwig by her mean mother, and Josephine's daugher Minona was quite likely Ludwig's (who she met for the last time in 1812) Stackelberg had left her and they were not intimate anymore as they hated each other. I think Josephine wanted to divorce him but this wasn't possible. Josephine and Ludwig still wrote to each other for some time afterwards- Therese was the go between.

[Peter]

Nice nice to know that many Europeans, if not all, don't accept Solomon's standard point on the Immortal Beloved.

Peter, The two web sites and a Beethoven letter book I read all indicate the letter to Wegeler was written in 1800 (Nov 16), instead of 1801. Are they all wrong?

Of course your arguments make sense, but they can also explain why Beethoven finally did not accept Brentano's love. In his letters, he displayed various conflicts in his deep heart. He definitely made a big and right decision on this love affair.

Based on what I've read so far, the relationship between Beethoven and Josephine was ended in 1807. There was a rumor saying they had a daughter around 1812.

Please don't forget Thayer was an American too

This letter was the second that Beethoven wrote to Wegeler in 1801 - his earlier letter of June 29th 1801 is the first time he mentions his deafness and the letter concerning his love affair had to be written after that one. No, there is no way Beethoven would have even contemplated an affair that involved the deceit of one of his closest friends, Franz Brentano. With regards to Josephine Brunsvik, well it is possible - she was very unhappily married and later separated from Stackelberg. However she does not meet the criteria of Beethoven's 1816 letter when he refers to having met someone 5 years earlier who was the greatest love of his life, i.e The Immortal beloved - Beethoven had known Josephine since 1799.

[AeolianHarp]

This letter was the second that Beethoven wrote to Wegeler in 1801 - his earlier letter of June 29th 1801 is the first time he mentions his deafness and the letter concerning his love affair had to be written after that one. No, there is no way Beethoven would have even contemplated an affair that involved the deceit of one of his closest friends, Franz Brentano.

I am glad you know this Peter- he didn't do such a thing! I wish more people would realise this! It is a slur on his character!

With regards to Josephine Brunsvik, well it is possible - she was very unhappily married and later separated from Stackelberg.

Stackelberg was a most unpleasant character.

However she does not meet the criteria of Beethoven's 1816 letter when he refers to having met someone 5 years earlier who was the greatest love of his life, i.e The Immortal beloved - Beethoven had known Josephine since 1799.

Well we only have Fanny's word for that- how do we know how reliable she was? She had a crush on Ludwig.

If this is what she overheard (remember she was not actually right there but overhearing through a door)- she may have misheard the number of years, whether this was a meeting between Ludwig and the lady he loved, rather than the first time he ever saw this lady.

Interestingly, 1811 is the year Josephine refused Stackleberg into her bed and he left- the exact date is unclear but by the summer of 1812 he had gone.

But I am sceptical that he'd reveal such personal information to a man he didn't know that well.I'm rather inclined to think that he'd growl, "Mind your own business!" to a question about why he wasn't married, than reveal his feelings to someone like that.

[AeolianHarp]

For more on Josephine read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Brunsvik

[thesunlover]

Are we talking about the same letter? I've focused on this one below. If the year (1800) is correct, that means Thayer made a mistake by using the year of 1801 in his popular book, and others have followed his mistake for years till today. Or, the two web sites of Beethoven letters made a mistake by using the year of 1800. They can't be both right.

----------------------------------------------------------------

TO HERR VON WEGELER.
Vienna, Nov. 16, 1800.
MY DEAR WEGELER,--
…………………………………………?? ?…………………………………………? ??
I am now leading a somewhat more agreeable life, as of late I have been associating more with other people. You could scarcely believe what a sad and dreary life mine has been for the last two years; my defective hearing everywhere pursuing me like a spectre, making me fly from every one, and appear a misanthrope; and yet no one is in reality less so! This change has been wrought by a lovely fascinating girl [undoubtedly Giulietta], who loves me and whom I love. I have once more had some blissful moments during the last two years, and it is the first time I ever felt that marriage could make me happy. Unluckily, she is not in my rank of life, and indeed at this moment I can marry no one; I must first bestir myself actively in the world. Had it not been for my deafness, I would have travelled half round the globe ere now, and this I must still do. For me there is no pleasure so great as to promote and to pursue my art.

http://archive.org/stream/beethovens...1beet_djvu.txt

[Peter]

Are we talking about the same letter? I've focused on this one below. If the year (1800) is correct, that means Thayer made a mistake by using the year of 1801 in his popular book, and others have followed his mistake for years till today. Or, the two web sites of Beethoven letters made a mistake by using the year of 1800. They can't be both right.

I hope this from the Beethovenhaus archives clarifies it for you:

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...eter=&_seite=1

[Peter]

I am glad you know this Peter- he didn't do such a thing! I wish more people would realise this! It is a slur on his character!




Stackelberg was a most unpleasant character.




Well we only have Fanny's word for that- how do we know how reliable she was? She had a crush on Ludwig.

If this is what she overheard (remember she was not actually right there but overhearing through a door)- she may have misheard the number of years, whether this was a meeting between Ludwig and the lady he loved, rather than the first time he ever saw this lady.

Interestingly, 1811 is the year Josephine refused Stackleberg into her bed and he left- the exact date is unclear but by the summer of 1812 he had gone.

But I am sceptical that he'd reveal such personal information to a man he didn't know that well.I'm rather inclined to think that he'd growl, "Mind your own business!" to a question about why he wasn't married, than reveal his feelings to someone like that.

It is true Fanny isn't that reliable a witness and could indeed have got her facts mixed - I think she heard something, but as you say she was at a distance and may not have had the full picture. Josephine has always been the most likely candidate for me, but unless more evidence is forthcoming we can't be sure. As to Minona, well wouldn't Beethoven have taken a lot more interest in both her and Josephine even after the 1812 split which must have been on mutually amicable terms?

[AeolianHarp]

It is true Fanny isn't that reliable a witness and could indeed have got her facts mixed - I think she heard something, but as you say she was at a distance and may not have had the full picture.

That's if she heard anything at all!

Josephine has always been the most likely candidate for me, but unless more evidence is forthcoming we can't be sure.

The evidence is substantial!

As to Minona, well wouldn't Beethoven have taken a lot more interest in both her and Josephine even after the 1812 split which must have been on mutually amicable terms?

There was a comment he made in his diary which seemed to relate to them. Yes, he did take interest in Josephine- but had to do it quietly as the mother was always watching- notes passed via Therese. And Josephine was ill a lot too in her final years.

[AeolianHarp]

Are we talking about the same letter? I've focused on this one below. If the year (1800) is correct, that means Thayer made a mistake by using the year of 1801 in his popular book, and others have followed his mistake for years till today. Or, the two web sites of Beethoven letters made a mistake by using the year of 1800. They can't be both right.

----------------------------------------------------------------

TO HERR VON WEGELER.
Vienna, Nov. 16, 1800.
MY DEAR WEGELER,--
…………………………………………?? ?…………………………………………? ??
I am now leading a somewhat more agreeable life, as of late I have been associating more with other people. You could scarcely believe what a sad and dreary life mine has been for the last two years; my defective hearing everywhere pursuing me like a spectre, making me fly from every one, and appear a misanthrope; and yet no one is in reality less so! This change has been wrought by a lovely fascinating girl [undoubtedly Giulietta], who loves me and whom I love. I have once more had some blissful moments during the last two years, and it is the first time I ever felt that marriage could make me happy. Unluckily, she is not in my rank of life, and indeed at this moment I can marry no one; I must first bestir myself actively in the world. Had it not been for my deafness, I would have travelled half round the globe ere now, and this I must still do. For me there is no pleasure so great as to promote and to pursue my art.

http://archive.org/stream/beethovens...1beet_djvu.txt

Romain Rolland has the letter dated November, 1801.

[EternaLisa]

It is true Fanny isn't that reliable a witness and could indeed have got her facts mixed - I think she heard something, but as you say she was at a distance and may not have had the full picture. Josephine has always been the most likely candidate for me, but unless more evidence is forthcoming we can't be sure. As to Minona, well wouldn't Beethoven have taken a lot more interest in both her and Josephine even after the 1812 split which must have been on mutually amicable terms?

{Folks I know this is a thread about Miss Guiccairdi-hehe} and the IB topic is never one with a dull moment...there's no telling what exactly went through FannyG's mind and why exactly...but one thing I think we may all agree on is: she was the one who claims to have been there at the time to overhear B's exchange with her daddy...(yes I've been sniffing 'in-cense and pepper-mense' a lot lately so 'high there' again )


xoxox
PHX

[thesunlover]

Thanks a lot Peter for the clarification.

It's clear now. Thayer didn't make a mistake here. The two webs are wrong.

[Peter]

That's if she heard anything at all!

Well that's speculation and actually I don't think reading her account that it sounds fanciful - the date for one thing relates pretty well with the Immortal beloved letters.

The evidence is substantial!

But not conclusive - my hunch though is that you are probably correct. As to Minona being Beethoven's daughter I'm more doubtful - you agree with me concerning Beethoven's moral stance with Antonie Brentano, but are suggesting the opposite with Josephine! I don't think their relationship was ever consummated.

[AeolianHarp]

Well that's speculation and actually I don't think reading her account that it sounds fanciful - the date for one thing relates pretty well with the Immortal beloved letters.

You mean 1811/12?

But not conclusive - my hunch though is that you are probably correct. As to Minona being Beethoven's daughter I'm more doubtful - you agree with me concerning Beethoven's moral stance with Antonie Brentano, but are suggesting the opposite with Josephine! I don't think their relationship was ever consummated.

Who else's daughter could Minona have been? There was no other man around Josephine in 1812- Stackelburg had left her and they had stopped sharing a bedroom- they hated each other. I follow you re the moral stance, but Josephine and Stackelburg were separated, and hardly a friend of Ludwig's was he! Not the same thing at all- not breaking up a happy marriage as the marriage with Stackelberg was dead but in name. The 1812 encounter wasn't planned to end up so intimate but happened after longing to be together for years, more like a goodbye I think.

[Peter]

You mean 1811/12?

Yes

Who else's daughter could Minona have been? There was no other man around Josephine in 1812- Stackelburg had left her and they had stopped sharing a bedroom- they hated each other. I follow you re the moral stance, but Josephine and Stackelburg were separated, and hardly a friend of Ludwig's was he! Not the same thing at all- not breaking up a happy marriage as the marriage with Stackelberg was dead but in name. The 1812 encounter wasn't planned to end up so intimate but happened after longing to be together for years, more like a goodbye I think.

Firstly you say no other man was around Josephine in 1812, yet there is no concrete evidence that Beethoven was either! How can you be certain Josephine wasn't having an affair before the bust up of her marriage in May 1812 and that this was the source of the quarrel with Stackelberg that led him to leave in the first place?

Secondly, is it likely that Beethoven having twice been rejected in the past by Josephine (in a way that made it quite clear she did not want physical relations with him) would have responded to the desperate unhappiness of someone he cared deeply about by making her circumstances worse - i.e getting her pregnant? He wasn't an infatuated, ignorant teenager acting on impulse, but a mature man of 42.

[AeolianHarp]

Firstly you say no other man was around Josephine in 1812, yet there is no concrete evidence that Beethoven was either! How can you be certain Josephine wasn't having an affair before the bust up of her marriage in May 1812 and that this was the source of the quarrel with Stackelberg that led him to leave in the first place?

Stackelberg left because they were not getting on- he was a bully and treated the children and Josephine horribly- this is documented by Therese and other family documents- no mention whatsoever is made of another man- and they made plenty of mentions regarding Andrian who she later got involved with, so I doubt there was another man.

Secondly, is it likely that Beethoven having twice been rejected in the past by Josephine (in a way that made it quite clear she did not want physical relations with him) would have responded to the desperate unhappiness of someone he cared deeply about by making her circumstances worse - i.e getting her pregnant? He wasn't an infatuated, ignorant teenager acting on impulse, but a mature man of 42.

That's not excatly what she said....
I know he was a mature, caring man of 42, but that was not the intention- for a child to be born. Possibly too, given the less reliable methods of contraception back then, something failed there. And maybe meeting after all that time, their love overcame logic- that happens to many adults. To be denied to express love for someone for 13 years...that cannot be easy can it?
And here's another thought, maybe Josephine wanted to have Beethoven's baby.