When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[AeolianHarp]

I haven't read that part yet.

It is so well said. It's also what I thought. Op.111 is the summary of Beethoven's whole life. You must listen to Op.111 in order to understand Beethoven well.

Yes, I listen to Op.111 a lot too- it's true what you say. Summary of his life- ah that is the phrase I have been searching for! I have been using the term "musical biography."

[AeolianHarp]

Mistake one: Chapter 1815, Page 126

"Beethoven 1055-56 Seilerstaat (62)"

(62) Therese's Diary, 1816, p.106

Ah, right- well that is the draft, so it hadn't been proof read at that point I presume. I noticed some typos and grammatical errors, but nothing in the general information. Only that Tallenbuch leaves out mentioning Josephine's pregnancy by Andrian. There was a lot more information on Andrian which I found interesting.Tallenbuch says he was a widower with little daughter, yet Rita Steblin claimed Josephine had a daughter to him that he brought up by himself and she died aged 2 of measles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Brunsvik

I'd like to know her source for that, as reading Tallenbuch's account it seems quite unlikely Josephine would have entered an intimate relationship with Andrian for 3 reasons:

1.She was far too ill at this time.

2. Stackelberg was around, he didn't like Andrian and he was looking for any excuse to keep Josephine's children away from her, hence he invented stories about their behaviour.

3.Josephine was too in love with Beethoven at this time to be interested in any other man.

I know the last point could be argued about her marriage to Stackleberg- but that was different- she had lost hope of ever being able to marry Beethoven, and was extremely concerned about her children's future. Stackelberg was a Count, her social rank and the children's tutor and he threatened to stop teaching them if she didn't marry him.By that time she was pregnant and had lost interest in him, but was trapped. When they first met he put the charm on and made her feel that he was the answer to her problems, when in fact he turned out to be the biggest problem of her life.

[Pastoral68]

Hi Aeolianharp,

Do you remember of me? I'm using another nick, but I am the author of The Deaf God.

I don't know if you read my book or liked it. However, I totally agree with you about the Immortal Beloved's identity. My novel convinced some Italian readers that it's Pepi, no matter what.

I did a lot of searches and I'm also convincing them that Minona is their daughter. Of course I wrote just a novel, but I saw possible that Ludwig and Pepi conceived her in Prague on 1812 July 3rd, when Ludwig was on the way for Teplitz (where he wrote the letters) and Pepi was running away from Stackelberg.

It's true that Ludwig met Antonie too in Prague, but she was pregnant and with her husband Franz and daughter Maxe: Ludwig wrote the letters 3 days later, and to me it sounds strange that he said those things to the pregnant-wife-mother-Antonie

Unfortunately I'm not able to translate the second part yet because I'm sure you would love the story, since you feel that it's Pepi

Well, nice to meet you again

[AeolianHarp]

Hi Aeolianharp,

Do you remember of me? I'm using another nick, but I am the author of The Deaf God.

Yes, I do! Hello! I hope you are well.

I don't know if you read my book or liked it. However, I totally agree with you about the Immortal Beloved's identity. My novel convinced some Italian readers that it's Pepi, no matter what.

I liked what I have read so far! I confess I haven't finished it yet, as I have been so busy and I have so much to read- both paper books and e-books on my Kindle. I am coming to the end of Beethoven's letters on the Kindle and the next on Kindle is to finish your book. Oh I didn't know you had included the truth about Pepi and Ludwig in your book, very good!

I did a lot of searches and I'm also convincing them that Minona is their daughter. Of course I wrote just a novel, but I saw possible that Ludwig and Pepi conceived her in Prague on 1812 July 3rd, when Ludwig was on the way for Teplitz (where he wrote the letters) and Pepi was running away from Stackelberg.

Really, I don't see who else could have been Minona's father since Josephine was not in love with Stackleberg, had stopped being intimate with him and was only in love with Ludwig.
Klapproth hints in his book that once Josephine realised she was pregnant by Ludwig, she had to then ingratiate herself with Stackleberg so he would not know Minona wasn't his ( though he could have suspected if the girl resembled Ludwig ). Therese seems to have known who Minona's father was, describing Minona as very musical and her personality traits are described as being like Ludwig's.

It is a shame Minona never married and had children of her own as there could have been Ludwig's descendants living today...imagine that!!!

It's true that Ludwig met Antonie too in Prague, but she was pregnant and with her husband Franz and daughter Maxe: Ludwig wrote the letters 3 days later, and to me it sounds strange that he said those things to the pregnant-wife-mother-Antonie

Yes and letters written to Antonie by Ludwig are of a friendly type, with no hints of a deep romantic love.Also he stated that he would never have had an affair with a friend's wife. Stackelberg was different- Josephine wanted out of the marriage, so it was marriage only by a legal piece of paper, but divorce was impossible - she would have lost her children.We
only have to see Ludwig's honourable behaviour towards Josephine when she married her first husband, Count Deym. He carried on teaching her piano and was good friends with Deym, who liked Ludwig and gave him gifts.Ludwig showed no jealousy or bitterness- he suppressed his feelings towards Josephine and Count Deym and her marriage to Deym was a content one, mostly.

Unfortunately I'm not able to translate the second part yet because I'm sure you would love the story, since you feel that it's Pepi

I am sure you will find a translator in the near future.

Well, nice to meet you again

And you too!

[Pastoral68]

Yes, I do! Hello! I hope you are well.

I am coming to the end of Beethoven's letters on the Kindle and the next on Kindle is to finish your book. Oh I didn't know you had included the truth about Pepi and Ludwig in your book, very good!

I read all of those letters, written and received by Ludwig. It was my mainly source! You can really have the sensation to know him through those letters.

I picked so many information from them!

For example, I remember one where he's mentioning (to Zmeskall, I guess) about his own servant having kind of a flirt with Countess Erdody. So, since the narrator will become his servant...

I always try to imagine Ludwig while he was writing those letters. It must have been just like a normal person writing a letter. But it was him!!!
I don't know if this makes sense

[AeolianHarp]

I read all of those letters, written and received by Ludwig. It was my mainly source! You can really have the sensation to know him through those letters.

You can indeed- he can be quite funny can't he? And other times so moving- especially the letters to dear friends and Karl.

I picked so many information from them!

That is what a good biographer/writer does...

For example, I remember one where he's mentioning (to Zmeskall, I guess) about his own servant having kind of a flirt with Countess Erdody. So, since the narrator will become his servant...

Oh I missed that- I must have a look at that one again!

I always try to imagine Ludwig while he was writing those letters. It must have been just like a normal person writing a letter. But it was him!!!
I don't know if this makes sense

I understand all you have expressed there.

[Fredrika]

Mistake one: Chapter 1815, Page 126

"Beethoven 1055-56 Seilerstaat (62)"

(62) Therese's Diary, 1816, p.106

Nice to meet you too Where are you from sunlover?

Hmm, I seem to have different page numbers for some reason. But to share my thoughts on the Andrian question, yes, I do believe Josephine had a daughter with him, it's so clear in Therese's diary which I find to be very reliable.

It seems out of character yes, but then again if Josephine was the type of getting pregnant easily then all it required was one night...and Stackelberg had made her feel miserable for years. Also we can't exclude the scenario of a possible rape :/ I'm just thinking how different the times were back then, a woman would be easily blamed for something like that, and it would explain the hiding in the hut too.

[thesunlover]

Initially I came from China. I have been living and working in the great lake region of North America for many years.

[thesunlover]

Beethoven and Josephine probably met in 1816 in Baden, but in which month exactly?

Klapproth said it could have happened in May (page 130 of his book), but Tellenbach indicated it was in July (page 142 of her book).

Who should I follow?

[thesunlover]

...Fanny had found on a piece of paper in Beethoven's room, indicates that Josephine had been fresh on his mind: "My heart overflows at the sight of beautiful Nature – albeit without her!" (Page 142, Tellenbach book)

Where and when did this happen? --- Baden, September 1816? Beethoven's room, a hotel room?

[AeolianHarp]

Beethoven and Josephine probably met in 1816 in Baden, but in which month exactly?

Klapproth said it could have happened in May (page 130 of his book), but Tellenbach indicated it was in July (page 142 of her book).

Who should I follow?

Tellenbach has more details on pages 142-3.

[AeolianHarp]

...Fanny had found on a piece of paper in Beethoven's room, indicates that Josephine had been fresh on his mind: "My heart overflows at the sight of beautiful Nature – albeit without her!" (Page 142, Tellenbach book)

Where and when did this happen? --- Baden, September 1816? Beethoven's room, a hotel room?

Beethoven was in Baden in Allandegasse; Ossolynskisches Schloss, (now 26 Braitnerstrasse) July- October that year. One of his myriads of rentals! Fanny must have gone to visit him it seems- she comes across as quite inquisitive, he would have had to have been careful as if she had come across Beethoven with the Brunsviks I bet she would have guessed.

[thesunlover]

Hi, my essay on the subject of Beethoven's Immortal Beloved is finally finished. Thanks everyone here again for your great help!!!

(1) http://yidian.org/view-thread-21899.html
(2) http://yidian.org/view-thread-22231.html

[AeolianHarp]

Well done sunlover- as I cannot read Chinese, I'd like to ask is this for a website you have on Beethoven?