Many Beethoven books and online documentations tell us that their love started in 1801. But a Beethoven’s letter to Guicciardi indicates it was 1800? Which evidence is correct? In addition when did Guicciardi get married, 1801 or 1803?
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In 1800 Count Guicciardi took up a post at the Austro-Bohemina court chancellery in Vienna and Beethoven was introduced to the family through the Brunsviks (who they were related to ) Beethoven was persuaded to teach Giulietta. On 16th Nov 1801 Beethoven wrote to his old friend Wegeler in Bonn and mentioned his love for a 'dear enchanting girl' and says 'during the past 2 years' which indicates it would be early 1800 that they met. Giullietta married Count Gallenberg on 3rd Nov 1803.'Man know thyself' -
Can these sites be wrong with the years?
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13065...65-h.htm#let15
http://archive.org/stream/beethovens...1beet_djvu.txt
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TO COUNTESS GIULIETTA GUICCIARDI.[1]
Morning, July 6, 1800.
MY ANGEL! MY ALL! MY SECOND SELF!
Only a few words to-day, written with a pencil (your own). My residence cannot be settled till to-morrow. What a tiresome loss of time! Why this deep grief when necessity compels?--can our love exist without sacrifices, and by refraining from desiring all things? Can you alter the fact that you are not wholly mine, nor I wholly yours? Ah! contemplate the beauties of Nature, and reconcile your spirit to the inevitable. Love demands all, and has a right to do so, and thus it is I feel towards you and you towards me; but you do not sufficiently remember that I must live both for you and for myself. Were we wholly united, you would feel this sorrow as little as I should. My journey was terrible. I did not arrive here till four o'clock yesterday morning, as no horses were to be had. The drivers chose another route; but what a dreadful one it was! At the last stage I was warned not to travel through the night, and to beware of a certain wood, but this only incited me to go forward, and I was wrong. The carriage broke down, owing to the execrable roads, mere deep rough country lanes, and had it not been for the postilions I must have been left by the wayside. Esterhazy, travelling the usual road, had the same fate with eight horses, whereas I had only four. Still I felt a certain degree of pleasure, which I invariably do when I have happily surmounted any difficulty. But I must now pass from the outer to the inner man. We shall, I trust, soon meet again; to-day I cannot impart to you all the reflections I have made, during the last few days, on my life; were our hearts closely united forever, none of these would occur to me. My heart is overflowing with all I have to say to you. Ah! there are moments when I find that speech is actually nothing. Take courage! Continue to be ever my true and only love, my all! as I am yours. The gods must ordain what is further to be and shall be!
Your faithful
LUDWIG
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TO HERR VON WEGELER.
Vienna, Nov. 16, 1800.
MY DEAR WEGELER,--
I thank you for this fresh proof of your interest in me, especially as I so little deserve it. You wish to know how I am, and what remedies I use. Unwilling as I always feel to discuss this subject, still I feel less reluctant to do so with you than with any other person. For some months past Vering has ordered me to apply blisters on both arms, of a particular kind of bark, with which you are probably acquainted,--a disagreeable remedy, independent of the pain, as it deprives me of the free use of my arms for a couple of days at a time, till the blisters have drawn sufficiently. The ringing and buzzing in my ears have certainly rather decreased, particularly in the left ear, in which the malady first commenced, but my hearing is not at all improved; in fact I fear that it is become rather worse. My health is better, and after using the tepid baths for a time, I feel pretty well for eight or ten days. I seldom take tonics, but I have begun applications of herbs, according to your advice. Vering will not hear of plunge baths, but I am much dissatisfied with him; he is neither so attentive nor so indulgent as he ought to be to such a malady; if I did not go to him, which is no easy matter, I should never see him at all. What is your opinion of Schmidt [an army surgeon]? I am unwilling to make any change, but it seems to me that Vering is too much of a practitioner to acquire new ideas by reading. On this point Schmidt appears to be a very different man, and would probably be less negligent with regard to my case. I hear wonders of galvanism; what do you say to it? A physician told me that he knew a deaf and dumb child whose hearing was restored by it (in Berlin), and likewise a man who had been deaf for seven years, and recovered his hearing. I am told that your friend Schmidt is at this moment making experiments on the subject.
I am now leading a somewhat more agreeable life, as of late I have been associating more with other people. You could scarcely believe what a sad and dreary life mine has been for the last two years; my defective hearing everywhere pursuing me like a spectre, making me fly from every one, and appear a misanthrope; and yet no one is in reality less so! This change has been wrought by a lovely fascinating girl [undoubtedly Giulietta], who loves me and whom I love. I have once more had some blissful moments during the last two years, and it is the first time I ever felt that marriage could make me happy. Unluckily, she is not in my rank of life, and indeed at this moment I can marry no one; I must first bestir myself actively in the world. Had it not been for my deafness, I would have travelled half round the globe ere now, and this I must still do. For me there is no pleasure so great as to promote and to pursue my art.
Do not suppose that I could be happy with you. What indeed could make me happier? Your very solicitude would distress me; I should read your compassion every moment in your countenance, which would make me only still more unhappy. What were my thoughts amid the glorious scenery of my father-land? The hope alone of a happier future, which would have been mine but for this affliction! Oh! I could span the world were I only free from this! I feel that my youth is only now commencing. Have I not always been an infirm creature? For some time past my bodily strength has been increasing, and it is the same with my mental powers. I feel, though I cannot describe it, that I daily approach the object I have in view, in which alone can your Beethoven live. No rest for him!--I know of none but in sleep, and I do grudge being obliged to sacrifice more time to it than formerly.[1] Were I only half cured of my malady, then I would come to you, and, as a more perfect and mature man, renew our old friendship.
You should then see me as happy as I am ever destined to be here below--not unhappy. No! that I could not endure; I will boldly meet my fate, never shall it succeed in crushing me. Oh! it is so glorious to live one's life a thousand times over! I feel that I am no longer made for a quiet existence. You will write to me as soon as possible? Pray try to prevail on Steffen [von Breuning] to seek an appointment from the Teutonic Order somewhere. Life here is too harassing for his health; besides, he is so isolated that I do not see how he is ever to get on. You know the kind of existence here. I do not take it upon myself to say that society would dispel his lassitude, but he cannot be persuaded to go anywhere. A short time since, I had some music in my house, but our friend Steffen stayed away. Do recommend him to be more calm and self-possessed, which I have in vain tried to effect; otherwise he can neither enjoy health nor happiness. Tell me in your next letter whether you care about my sending you a large selection of music; you can indeed dispose of what you do not want, and thus repay the expense of the carriage, and have my portrait into the bargain. Say all that is kind and amiable from me to Lorchen, and also to mamma and Christoph. You still have some regard for me? Always rely on the love as well as the friendship of your
BEETHOVEN.Comment
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* These letters to his ' immortal beloved ' to whom the C sharp minor Sonata is dedicated, appear here for the first time in their integrity, in accordance with the originals written in pencil on fine note-paper, and given in Schindler's ' Beethoven's Nachlass.' There has been much dis- cussion about the date. It is certified, in the first place, in the church register which Alex. Thayer saw in Vienna, that Giulietta was married to Count Grallenberg in 1801 ; and in the next place, the 6th of July falls on a Monday in 1800. The other reasons which induce me decidedly to fix this latter year as the date of the letter, I mean to give at full length in the second volume of 'Beethoven's Biography.' I may also state that Beethoven was at baths in Hungary at that time. Whether the K in the second letter means Komorn, I cannot tell.
http://archive.org/stream/beethovens...1beet_djvu.txtComment
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But Guicciardi married Gallenberg in 1803, not 1801. Also Beethoven refers in a letter of 1816 to a person he had met 5 years earlier who was the only true love of his life, but that circumstances prevented marriage.Originally posted by thesunlover View Post'Man know thyself'Comment
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If the following years (1800) are correct, that means Thayer made a mistake by using the year of 1801, and others followed his mistake for years. Or, the two web sites of Beethoven letters made a mistake by using the year of 1800. They can't be both right.
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TO COUNTESS GIULIETTA GUICCIARDI.[1]
Morning, July 6, 1800.
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TO HERR VON WEGELER.
Vienna, Nov. 16, 1800.
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The "Immortal Beloved" letter was written in 1812 not 1800, so was not to Julie Guicciadi. That letter was to Josephine Brunsvik.Ludwig van Beethoven
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Ok. The webs are wrong with the date of the letter to “My angel, my all, my very self”. The receiver should be Antonie Brentano, not Giulietta Gruicciardi or Josephine Brunsvik.
Is the year of the letter to WEGELER 1800 or 1801?Comment
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The letter was not written to Antonie Bretano, but Josephine Brunsvik. Her own sister acknowledged this years later. Also, the sentiments expressed in the letter match what was written to her when they were younger.
I recommend you read this book- by a German who has seen the original documents!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethovens-O.../dp/1461186382
Antonie was not the IM.Ludwig van Beethoven
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My understanding is that most of Beethoven scholars today accept Antonie as the Immortal Beloved.
It's still my main interest that in which year, 1800 or 1801, Beethoven fell in love with Guicciardi.Comment
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My understanding is that most of Beethoven scholars today accept Antonie as the Immortal Beloved.
Not all, and those who can read German and have seen the original documents believe it was Josephine. A lot of mistranslations have got out into the English speaking biographers.
I'd go with the original letters. As Peter pointed out that would be 1800.It's still my main interest that in which year, 1800 or 1801, Beethoven fell in love with Guicciardi.Ludwig van Beethoven
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Doch nicht vergessen sollten
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Thanks AeolianHarp for the info. Nice to know it.
Did Thayer mess up the year of the well-known Beethoven letter to Wegeler on Nov. 16? Most of today's books and documentations referring this letter use 1801, following the mistake Thayer made.Comment
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I think the dates for the letters are correct - 1800 Guicciardi and 1801 for Wegeler and I'm sure the romance with Guilietta began in 1800 when Beethoven accepted her as his pupil. Many American scholars accept Solomon's theory of Antonie Brentano but this is not the case with all European scholars.Originally posted by thesunlover View Post
There are many arguments against Brentano being the Immortal beloved - Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife?
Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven (who had strong religious and moral convictions*) is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous?
* To Marie Bigot in 1808 - "It is one of my foremost principles never to occupy any other relations than those of friendship with the wife of another man. I should never want to fill my heart with distrust towards those who may chance some day to share my fate with me, and thus destroy the loveliest and purest life for myself."'Man know thyself'Comment
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Solomon cannot understand German and has mistranslated letters in his books- he is not accurate.I think the dates for the letters are correct - 1800 Guicciardi and 1801 for Wegeler and I'm sure the romance with Guilietta began in 1800 when Beethoven accepted her as his pupil. Many American scholars accept Solomon's theory of Antonie Brentano but this is not the case with all European scholars.
I agree- no way would or could Beethoven have done such a thing.There are many arguments against Brentano being the Immortal beloved - Beethoven would have had to have been carrying on this affair right under her husband's nose - Franz Brentano was present throughout at Prague and Karlsbad with Antonie, along with their daughter. Beethoven had the greatest respect (as did Antonie) for Franz and he regarded him as a personal friend - is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife?
All very true Peter- he regarded marriage as a sacred bond and respected married friends. He was a spiritual man with a sense of honour- I find it despicable people still keep saying he would cheat on Franz with his wife like this. It is wrong.Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Beethoven (who had strong religious and moral convictions*) is also known to have condemned adultery on many occasions and is surely unlikely to have regarded the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous?
To Marie Bigot in 1808 :
"It is one of my foremost principles never to occupy any other relations than those of friendship with the wife of another man. I should never want to fill my heart with distrust towards those who may chance some day to share my fate with me, and thus destroy the loveliest and purest life for myself."
Read the above members and take note! Beethoven said this and he meant it!!!Ludwig van Beethoven
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Nice nice to know that many Europeans, if not all, don't accept Solomon's standard point on the Immortal Beloved.
Peter, The two web sites and a Beethoven letter book I read all indicate the letter to Wegeler was written in 1800 (Nov 16), instead of 1801. Are they all wrong?
Of course your arguments make sense, but they can also explain why Beethoven finally did not accept Brentano's love. In his letters, he displayed various conflicts in his deep heart. He definitely made a big and right decision on this love affair.
Based on what I've read so far, the relationship between Beethoven and Josephine was ended in 1807. There was a rumor saying they had a daughter around 1812.
Please don't forget Thayer was an American too
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