He didn't compose the Moonlight Sonata?
I've heard that a prototype of this piece (1st mvmt) was given to B by a guitarist friend of his, and that he merely elaborated on the basic piano part. I certainly hope this is fallacious. I'm not sure that the sonata would have the same effect on me, if I knew that it wasn't completely Ludwig's work. This has really been bothering me. Could I get some info from some of you afficionados? Gracias.
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I've read alot about Beethoven but I've never heard of this story! Where did you get this from? It would require the production of the original guitar version score and some authentication that it was written before the moonlight and that the two composers met at the right time for the idea to be taken seriously. It was never in B's nature to make a whole movement out of a contemporaries work, that's for certain (other than the variations in op11 of course).Originally posted by bjorkster:
I've heard that a prototype of this piece (1st mvmt) was given to B by a guitarist friend of his, and that he merely elaborated on the basic piano part. I certainly hope this is fallacious. I'm not sure that the sonata would have the same effect on me, if I knew that it wasn't completely Ludwig's work. This has really been bothering me. Could I get some info from some of you afficionados? Gracias.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-01-2001).] -
I would have never thought it either. I would especially think that this would have come to light (or at least be debated), because this is such a famous work. I've heard it from two different people on message boards. One of them I didn't know, but the other had been posting at the forum for a while; he seemed pretty reliable. This was a guitar site, however, not a classical one. Therefore, he probably wasn't an expert on the subject. I severely hope you're right, Rod. Thanks.
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I think I've heard this somewhere else, probably on one of those damned internet sites!Originally posted by Rod:
I've read alot about Beethoven but I've never heard of this story! Where did you get this from?
I don't believe a word of it - the Moonlight is all B.
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 02-04-2002).]'Man know thyself'Comment
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There is a lot of nonsence written on the internet about Beethoven, sometimes even at sites that claim some academic authority. Believe me, if the story had any validity to it we would have all known about it for years before the age of the internet! On the other hand this wasn't one of Solomon's hypotheses was it?!!Originally posted by Peter:
I think I've heard this somewhere else, probably on one of those damned internet sites!
I don't believe a word of it - the Moonlight is all B.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 02-04-2002).]Comment
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What?? This can't be one of Beethoven's friends....is this true?Originally posted by bjorkster:
I've heard that a prototype of this piece (1st mvmt) was given to B by a guitarist friend of his, and that he merely elaborated on the basic piano part.
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freedom for all- Ludwig Van BeethovenComment
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>>>>I'm not sure that the sonata would have the same effect on me, if I knew that it wasn't completely Ludwig's work. <<<<<<
Why ? Does it become less of a piece of music ? Do you buy compuers,clothes,cars by label or just choose music ?
BTW... I wouldn't believe a word of it. So you can still like the Moonlight, I'm sure it's by Beethoven.
SteveComment
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No, quite the contrary. I care not in the least about brand names of clothes, cars, etc. However, I think there is pleasure attained from making an emotional link with a composer who has been deceased for over 150 years.
Beethoven was a very personal composer, and I can relate to many of the emotions I'm sure he felt. If the music wasn't written by him, I can't make that same link. I'm not saying I still wouldn't love the piece (because I would, very much). I just wouldn't enjoy it as much. Does this make any sense?Comment
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I'm thinking of what you said of that rumor is fake. I know Beethoven wrote this all along.Comment
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Those rumors are published by people who want to win money. DON'T BELIEVE IT!Comment
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I have no doubt that B wrote this piece but over time I have become more pragmatic about the issue of originality. Absolute originality is impossible and the idea that even the likes of B were free from all influence is a myth. It concerned me not when I suggested here the opening of B's op70/2 was 'borrowed' from Handel, whether it be true or not, but some people would be upset by such a notion. Nevertheless B must surely be the most original composer of all. Is was commented by a contemporary critic upon hearing 'Archduke' trio that many composers announce a 'new' work which turns out to be nothing of the sort, but that this was never so with Beethoven.Originally posted by bjorkster:
Beethoven was a very personal composer, and I can relate to many of the emotions I'm sure he felt. If the music wasn't written by him, I can't make that same link. I'm not saying I still wouldn't love the piece (because I would, very much). I just wouldn't enjoy it as much. Does this make any sense?
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-08-2002).]Comment
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Fine as the first period works are, I think your remarks are particularly true when it comes to the middle and late works - each work seems totally individual and unlike any other.Originally posted by Rod:
Nevertheless B must surely be the most original composer of all. Is was commented by a contemporary critic upon hearing 'Archduke' trio that many composers announce a 'new' work which turns out to be nothing of the sort, but that this was never so with Beethoven.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Maybe so, but remember the same contemporary critics were often bamboozeled by the 'bizarre' nature of many of B's first period works which seem to modern writers to have been strongly influenced by the more 'sensible' Haydn or Mozart.Originally posted by Peter:
Fine as the first period works are, I think your remarks are particularly true when it comes to the middle and late works - each work seems totally individual and unlike any other.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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All composers borrow from themselves and from others. They are inspired by a piece and make use of it again. B certainly "borrowed" from the Choral Fantasy when it came to the Ode to Joy. For another example find a recording of Mozarts K222 written 30 years before with the same theme clear as a bell.
Accidents happen also, try Mozarts Bastiene und Bastienne, a very early opera. You will find the oping chords to the 3rd symphony written about 35 years before "Eroica".
It is however almost certain that B never heard Bastiene und Bastienne. It is unlikely that he ever heard k222. The world was different then, you couldn't tune in the classical station as you drove your carriage to work. Music was often never premiered at all or played once for the occasion it was written for then packed away for decades till someone re-discovers it.
SteveComment
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With classical tonality, it is inevitable that similarities will occur between composers who are basically using the scale and arpeggio as building blocks for thematic material - what matters is what a composer does with his material; there is nothing remarkable about Mozart's Bastienne theme, but there is plenty to remark on with Beethoven's treatment of his similar theme in the Eroica.Originally posted by SR:
All composers borrow from themselves and from others. They are inspired by a piece and make use of it again. B certainly "borrowed" from the Choral Fantasy when it came to the Ode to Joy. For another example find a recording of Mozarts K222 written 30 years before with the same theme clear as a bell.
Accidents happen also, try Mozarts Bastiene und Bastienne, a very early opera. You will find the oping chords to the 3rd symphony written about 35 years before "Eroica".
It is however almost certain that B never heard Bastiene und Bastienne. It is unlikely that he ever heard k222. The world was different then, you couldn't tune in the classical station as you drove your carriage to work. Music was often never premiered at all or played once for the occasion it was written for then packed away for decades till someone re-discovers it.
Steve
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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