Beethoven and time signature changes.

[Enrique]

This is from the first movement of Beethoven's eighth symphony:





Look at the 6th through the 9th bars. Here he seems to change from 3/4 to 6/8! There is still another example of this in the same movement (last three bars below):



They seem written in 2/4. Notice the entire movement is written in 3/4. Of course there is the famous passage in the third symphony, third movement, main section (i.e., not the trio), marked alla breve. But here, at least in my edition the time signature is given explicitly 2/2. If Beethoven was the author of this time signature, it would be interesting to know who were his immediate predecessors in this usage. These passages can be heard in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuCFkbMr8qY (5:35 and 7:25).

As to the eighth symphony, were it written in the 20th century, the composer would very likely write the time signature. Any other instances of implicit time signature changes in Beethoven?

[AeolianHarp]

I wish I could undertand that better- me and time signatures don't get on...

[Enrique]

It's very easy. Listen to 5:11 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhAfa_c_6so. You'll see how the same phrase is repeated twice. But the second time you'll notice there is something different: there has been a time signature change (the second instance of the phrase is at 5:15).

[AeolianHarp]

It's very easy. Listen to 5:11 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhAfa_c_6so. You'll see how the same phrase is repeated twice. But the second time you'll notice there is something different: there has been a time signature change (the second instance of the phrase is at 5:15).

Oh yes- I could hear that- awesome! It really adds interest! I wouldn't be able to tell by looking at sheet music so well though- I am hopeless at reading music.

[Enrique]

I glad you saw it. Were it not for the tempo change (alla breve) it would seem like a piece of 20th century music!

EDIT: did Beethoven write "alla breve"?

[AeolianHarp]

I glad you saw it. Were it not for the tempo change (alla breve) it would seem like a piece of 20th century music!

EDIT: did Beethoven write "alla breve"?

Goodness! I don't know...Maybe he did, maybe he didn't- he said something like if muscians couldn't work out how to play his music he didn't think much of them or something like that! I think I read that last night ( but seen it a few times)- not sure if it is in the Rolland book or saw it online. I don't think he wrote everything in such detail on his mansucripts. I haven't been able to find photos online of his manuscript, so maybe it no longer exists.

[Enrique]

The manuscript is extant. But I don't know where it can be seen (perhaps Beethoven's house in Bonn?)

[AeolianHarp]

The manuscript is extant. But I don't know where it can be seen (perhaps Beethoven's house in Bonn?)

Couldn't find it on the website.

[Peter]

Had he wanted a time signature change, Beethoven would certainly have marked it. In the first passage you quote with the octave Cs in the bass, the stress should be felt on the bottom C not the top - the grouping in the timpani part makes the 3 beats quite clear. Admittedly in the second passage it is possible to feel this as 2/4 and Beethoven by shifting accents in this way creates rhythmic ambiguity. I think many people hear/feel the opening of the 5th incorrectly as though it were a triplet with accent on first note, but it is on the second. The same thing occurs in the Scherzo of the Harp quartet.

[Enrique]

Then my ear is a very uncultivated one. Maybe it's because of the prominence of the violins over the rest of the strings.

[Peter]

Then my ear is a very uncultivated one. Maybe it's because of the prominence of the violins over the rest of the strings.

Not at all - these off beat accents do displace the rhythmic sense and are meant to! Another famous example is the finale of the Schumann piano concerto, 2nd theme which is in 3/4 but feels like 3/2.

[Enrique]

OK, but you didn't answer the thing about those bars in the 3rd movement of the Third.

[hal9000]

Isn't the second passage (the one at 7:35) just a straight up hemiola?

Wouldn't the first movement of the Eroica fit what you're looking for? 1 and 2

[hal9000]

OK, but you didn't answer the thing about those bars in the 3rd movement of the Third.

That sounds like Beethoven just changed meter. It sounds similar to the end of the A section in the scherzo of the Ninth where Beethoven changes meter from 3/4 to 2/2 to prepare for the trio in 2/2. That one obviously being explicit, though.

[Enrique]

Isn't the second passage (the one at 7:35) just a straight up hemiola?

Wouldn't the first movement of the Eroica fit what you're looking for? 1 and 2

2 is precisely what I'm speaking about. The time signature is 3/4 but it sounds as plain 2/4. In the pasage at 7:35 (3rd symphony) there is not three against two, if that is what you mean by hemiola. By the way, how did you made the MP3's?