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Beethoven symphonies second movements.

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    Beethoven symphonies second movements.

    I was remembering the fact that in such a revolutionary work as the 3rd symphony, the second movement is written in C minor, a tonality much related to E flat major, as it is its relative minor. So I tried to remember the tonalities of the slow movements of the other symphonies, trying to see in what degree Beethoven moved away from the common practice of his predecessors. In the 8th, we have the perfect model of Haydn and Mozart symphonies (F major - B flat major), along with the 1st. In the second, a weird thing happens. The second movement is written in A major, which makes the key to jump a fifth above instead of a fifth below. Here B seems to have done this in order to defy tradition. Again in the 5th symphony, another landmark in the history of the symphony, he seems to approach his predecessors: the key is A flat major, a fifth below E flat major, which is the relative of C minor. I don't remember well, but I think these are the only ones in which the second movement tonality keeps a simple relationship to that of the first.

    By the way, in the Seventh, the key is the same as in the first movement. Only the mode changes, which I don't think was common practice in his days (or was it?).
    Last edited by Enrique; 03-08-2014, 05:33 PM.

    #2
    I am not qualified or knowledgeable enough to speak to your question, but I was thinking of starting a thread to discuss the slow movements of each Beethoven symphony. It seems that apart from the Ninth, that is essentially what this thread is about.
    "Life is too short to spend it wandering in the barren Sahara of musical trash."
    --Sergei Vasilyevich Rachmaninoff

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      #3
      I'm not sure either Enrique....but I know from doing the Coursera course on his sonatas that he was different to other composers in his use of key changes and modalities.
      Ludwig van Beethoven
      Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
      Doch nicht vergessen sollten

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Enrique View Post
        So I tried to remember the tonalities of the slow movements of the other symphonies, trying to see in what degree Beethoven moved away from the common practice of his predecessors. In the 8th, we have the perfect model of Haydn and Mozart symphonies (F major - B flat major), along with the 1st.
        Haydn was actually remarkably daring in his choices of keys within a work, for example the slow movement of the quartet in D OP.76/5 is in F# major. Another example that comes to mind is the last sonata in Eb major that has a slow movement in E major.
        'Man know thyself'

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          #5
          Papa Haydn is much underrated I think!
          Ludwig van Beethoven
          Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
          Doch nicht vergessen sollten

          Comment


            #6
            The 5th Piano Concerto also diverges; the B Major slow movement is a drop of a 3rd to the E-flat of the outer movements.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Sorrano View Post
              The 5th Piano Concerto also diverges; the B Major slow movement is a drop of a 3rd to the E-flat of the outer movements.
              I've always wondered whether LvB deliberately wrote the adagio in B just for the later breath-taking effect of dropping a semi-tone to B flat before the attack into the E flat Rondo....

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                #8
                Probably Sorrano!
                Ludwig van Beethoven
                Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by PDG View Post
                  I've always wondered whether LvB deliberately wrote the adagio in B just for the later breath-taking effect of dropping a semi-tone to B flat before the attack into the E flat Rondo....
                  Yes but again it was something he had learnt from Haydn and had used before himself in earlier works - 1st movt of piano concerto no.1 suddenly steps up a semitone and then of course that wonderful moment in the finale of the 8th where he dramatically plunges down a semitone. Another example of Haydn's influence is the slowing down of the music at the end of the 4th symphony and then a sudden dash of high spirits to the end - Haydn did just this in his symphony no.98 and both are in the same key of Bb.
                  'Man know thyself'

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                    #10
                    Sounds like it would be well worth listening to some of Haydn's symphonies sometime. I don't have number #98, but have numbers 45, 53, 83, 94, 99. 101, 104, which ought to give me a good sampling.
                    "Life is too short to spend it wandering in the barren Sahara of musical trash."
                    --Sergei Vasilyevich Rachmaninoff

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Harvey View Post
                      Sounds like it would be well worth listening to some of Haydn's symphonies sometime. I don't have number #98, but have numbers 45, 53, 83, 94, 99. 101, 104, which ought to give me a good sampling.
                      I know- Keep meaning to myself. Check my thread out about the Haydn docu on you tube- I have linked it. They play some there- there's one quite thrilling symphony shown there- can't remember which one it is though.
                      Ludwig van Beethoven
                      Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                      Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Harvey View Post
                        Sounds like it would be well worth listening to some of Haydn's symphonies sometime. I don't have number #98, but have numbers 45, 53, 83, 94, 99. 101, 104, which ought to give me a good sampling.
                        I'd try and start earlier with nos 7,22,26,31,39 and most of them in the 40s and 50s. To get you in the mood here is the fine no.39:
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F56UgcSsA50
                        'Man know thyself'

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Peter View Post
                          Another example of Haydn's influence is the slowing down of the music at the end of the 4th symphony and then a sudden dash of high spirits to the end - Haydn did just this in his symphony no.98 and both are in the same key of Bb.
                          Beethoven must have loved 'Papa' Haydn. The end of B's Serioso quartet, Op.95 where this exact-same effect is employed by B. The whole 20-minute drama deliberately punctured by the dance-away, joyful coda. Surely a sincere gesture which he didn't have to use, but wanted to say 'goodbye' in his own, personal way.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Harvey View Post
                            Sounds like it would be well worth listening to some of Haydn's symphonies sometime. I don't have number #98, but have numbers 45, 53, 83, 94, 99. 101, 104, which ought to give me a good sampling.
                            I used these as my lottery numbers last night yet couldn't even win a lousy tenner!

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by PDG View Post
                              I used these as my lottery numbers last night yet couldn't even win a lousy tenner!
                              That's given me an idea to try my fave LvB opus numbers for my next ticket!
                              Ludwig van Beethoven
                              Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
                              Doch nicht vergessen sollten

                              Comment

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