Beethoven and Other Composers

[Harvey]

I came up with a statement that is very bold, if not impertinent and wanted to get feedback. I am thinking could this be an accurate representation or am I just very shallow in my knowledge of music. Tell me what you think and, even better, revise the statement to a more accurate representation. Here it is:

"The major composers before and during Beethoven's lifetime were largely building the framework that Beethoven built on, expanded, and took to new dimensions. All musicians after Beethoven were either detractors (in the sense that listening to them takes you away from the heights that Beethoven achieved) or poor imitators (insofar as they thought they were making works as great as those of Beethoven, but really the best of them only came close)."

[Peter]

No I don't agree with your statement!! Basically you're saying that all music prior and subsequent to Beethoven was/is inferior. It's quite difficult but I think useful to try to take Beethoven out of the picture occasionally when listening to other composers - I think in that way you begin to see the greatness in them as well - to me it's like a mountain range with obvious peaks such as Beethoven, but also majestic heights of Bach, Mozart etc..

[Enrique]

I think fanaticism blinds judgement.

[Albert Gans]

This statement is basically mixing up things. One always has to put things into the historical context. Of course, there is a 'before' and 'after' Beethoven. It is undeniable that his influence on the development of (classical) music was, has been, is and will remain huge. Take Beethoven out of the history of music and there is little doubt things would have looked dramatically different. But that certainly does not say anything about the quality of the music before Beethoven: we should not forget that he got inspired by great composers before him (Bach, for example, who was nearly forgotten in his time). As for the quality of music after Beethoven: sure, he influenced a lot of people (put fear into his successors to the point that they were afraid of composing things even), but things did eventually move on.

So, I think an unnuanced statement as the one you quote is one that really does not do justice, neither to Beethoven himself, nor to others.

[Harvey]

Thanks. This will help me refine the statement, and obviously the first statement would offend many whose favourite composer is not Beethoven. Perhaps this is a better way to put it without being obnoxious:

"The major composers before and during Beethoven's time created much beautiful music that influenced Beethoven and from which Beethoven moved on to new dimensions. All musicians after Beethoven were influenced by him in some manner, but few reached the peaks that Beethoven reached."

[AeolianHarp]

Yes, that's a good statement.

[PDG]

I'd say the first statement is closer to the truth than the diluted and revised second statement.

I'd like to discuss Brahms...

[Sorrano]

I'd say the first statement is closer to the truth than the diluted and revised second statement.

I'd like to discuss Brahms...

But isn't Brahm's First Symphony really Beethoven's 10th??

[PDG]

But isn't Brahm's First Symphony really Beethoven's 10th??

Brahms would have wished! I don't think he would have dared present it had Mr B still been alive! No, sir...

[AeolianHarp]

Brahms would have wished! I don't think he would have dared present it had Mr B still been alive! No, sir...

Brahms venerated Beethoven: in the composer's home, a marble bust of Beethoven looked down on the spot where he composed, and some passages in his works are reminiscent of Beethoven's style. Brahms's First Symphony bears strongly the influence of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, as the two works are both in C minor, and end in the struggle towards a C major triumph. The main theme of the finale of the First Symphony is also reminiscent of the main theme of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth, and when this resemblance was pointed out to Brahms, he replied that any ass – jeder Esel – could see that. In 1876, when the work was premiered in Vienna, it was immediately hailed as "Beethoven's Tenth". However, the similarity of Brahms's music to that of late Beethoven had first been noted as early as November 1853, in a letter from Albert Dietrich to Ernst Naumann.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanne...and_influences

Well he probably would have still made a nod to Ludwig, but maybe not so much as he did. I must listen to it- not familiar with it.

[PDG]

Brahms' First was the first symphonic offering by any famous composer for 50 years - such was the vacuum left by LvB's 9th. So, yes, we must give him credit for his daring. But it hardly breaks new ground. The over-enthusiastic Viennese were, I suggest, just desperate for a new musical hero.

[AeolianHarp]

Brahms' First was the first symphonic offering by any famous composer for 50 years - such was the vacuum left by LvB's 9th. So, yes, we must give him credit for his daring. But it hardly breaks new ground. The over-enthusiastic Viennese were, I suggest, just desperate for a new musical hero.

Well, the void of Ludwig's passing on must have been keenly felt of course, yes.

[Harvey]

Fascinating information. So Haydn invented the symphony, Beethoven refined it and took it to very high levels, then silence for 50 years. Remarkable. A testimony to the greatness of Beethoven's symphonic works.

[Peter]

Brahms' First was the first symphonic offering by any famous composer for 50 years - such was the vacuum left by LvB's 9th. So, yes, we must give him credit for his daring. But it hardly breaks new ground. The over-enthusiastic Viennese were, I suggest, just desperate for a new musical hero.

I think you're forgetting (wilfully? ) Mendelssohn and Schumann? What about Berlioz?

[Peter]

Fascinating information. So Haydn invented the symphony, Beethoven refined it and took it to very high levels, then silence for 50 years. Remarkable. A testimony to the greatness of Beethoven's symphonic works.

Haydn didn't invent it, you're ignoring Monn, Sammartini, Wagensiel to mention just a few who laid the foundations - Haydn was the one who did the refining as a journey through his 104 demonstrates! Beethoven expanded on the supreme model Haydn had left him. Then silence for 50 years? As I mentioned to PDG, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Berlioz!! Of these three, I'd say Schumann and Berlioz had the most influence on future generations.