How did Beethoven rank his symphonies?

[Harvey]

From reading "Beethoven the Creator" by Romain Rolland, I am convinced that Beethoven rated the Eroica as the best of his first eight symphonies. I also get the impression from other readings that Beethoven felt the Ninth was his greatest symphony. So a likely order begins with Nine, Three, ... but then what? The Fifth perhaps? I would really be curious to see how he ranked all nine of them. Any thoughts, ideas, speculations?

[Chris]

I have the feeling he would consider each one greater than the previous. True, something like the 4th was "lighter" than the 3rd, but that does not necessarily make it a lesser work. The Adagio introduction to the first movement is a great example of his developing powers as a composer.

[Peter]

Beethoven certainly expressed a preference for the Eroica over the 5th as he did for the 8th over the 7th.

[hal9000]

"Beethoven did not always plumb the depths. He was not always busy with major problems and the most significant spiritual experiences. Such works as the fourth, sixth and eighth symphonies depicts states of mind that require no such intensity of realization. It is significant that they were all written comparitively quickly and that each of them accompanies, as it were, one of his greater works. They are not in the main line of Beethoven's spiritual development. In these works the artist turns aside fundamental problems, and enjoys his art "for its own sake.". It is as if Beethoven, after each of his great efforts, took a temporary rest. And it is probable that the moods depicted in these works are more characteristic of the everyday Beethoven than those whose complete realization and expression cost him so much effort." - J.W.N Sullivan

His 'lighter' symphonies are by no means lesser pieces than their heavier counterparts, but they do evoke a different side of Beethoven. They are one side of the same coin, and I'm not sure Beethoven would rank them vertically but rather side by side. For instance, his 23rd and 24th piano sonatas - two works a world apart in the mood they depict - were considered two of his favourite. As for Beethoven's remark apropos the 8th being "so much better" than the 7th, I'm unsure how authentic he was - he did after all describe the 7th as "a grand symphony in A major (one of my most excellent works)."

[Peter]

"[I]Such works as the fourth, sixth and eighth symphonies depicts states of mind that require no such intensity of realization. It is significant that they were all written comparitively quickly and that each of them accompanies, as it were, one of his greater works. " - J.W.N Sullivan

Except the numbering of the symphonies is not necessarily chronological - the 5th was started before the 4th and finished after the 6th.

[hal9000]

I don't think the excerpt you quoted suggested otherwise. I'm not sure. Unless you mean that the 3rd and 5th are chronological 'siblings', which wouldn't actually diminish his point, since the 3rd and 5th in mood and character do stem from the same experience. You could see it as 3rd and 5th paired with the 4th and 6th, as two larger sets of the same idea. I'd be interested to know how much of the 5th was composed before the 4th.

"the 5th was started before the 4th and finished after the 6th."

In any case, I think that's the point he's making.

[PDG]

We know it irked him that his beloved 8th was over-shadowed by the 7th's enormous popularity, but I don't think that necessarily means he regarded the 8th as "greater" (the topic-starter's question here). Beethoven had been years without a big commercial success and - partly due to being suddenly outshone by the rising opera composers - apparently revelled in the 7th's mass appeal.

The 5th was started before the 4th but there was another original 4th which I think became the eventual 5th, so this is confusing - Opus 60 having been mostly written during his distracting dalliance with......whoever she was?

The 3rd/5th comparison is interesting. When did he express this view? I would guess some years after the 5th's premiere.

[Harvey]

The 3rd/5th comparison is interesting. When did he express this view? I would guess some years after the 5th's premiere.

According to Rolland's book this was after the first 8 were written and the questioner supposedly even asked him if he prefered the 3rd even over the 5th, and LvB did prefer the 3rd.

[Peter]

The 3rd/5th comparison is interesting. When did he express this view? I would guess some years after the 5th's premiere.

Welcome back from hibernation PDG!

"Hofrath Kueffner told him (Krenn) that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit in the evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humour, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favourite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humour) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'"

[AeolianHarp]

Welcome back from hibernation PDG!

"Hofrath Kueffner told him (Krenn) that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit in the evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humour, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favourite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humour) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'"

What a nice ancedote. was this the 1808 stay?

Is this the place?!

http://www.gasthaus-rose.info/

[Harvey]

Welcome back from hibernation PDG!

"Hofrath Kueffner told him (Krenn) that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit in the evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humour, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favourite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humour) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'"

Thanks. That is about what I had read, but it was noted this occurred prior to the Ninth being written. Here it is at the bottom of page 100 in Beethoven the Creator--just hover over the page edges to pdf page 120 and click, then page to book page 100.

[Peter]

What a nice ancedote. was this the 1808 stay?

Is this the place?!

http://www.gasthaus-rose.info/

This would have been the summer of 1817 - Beethoven's association with Kuffner (who was a poet and dramatist) possibly goes back to 1808 as Czerny claimed he provided the words for the Choral fantasia. Kuffner occurs frequently in the conversation books of 1826. I don't think that Inn still exists, but I found this: http://www.wien-nussdorf.at/bockk.htm

[AeolianHarp]

This would have been the summer of 1817 - Beethoven's association with Kuffner (who was a poet and dramatist) possibly goes back to 1808 as Czerny claimed he provided the words for the Choral fantasia. Kuffner occurs frequently in the conversation books of 1826. I don't think that Inn still exists, but I found this: http://www.wien-nussdorf.at/bockk.htm

Thanks Peter. No, sadly his inn is gone, I found out later. There is some sort of construction business there now.
Ah, so that's who Kuffner was- I do love the Choral Fantasy!

[Harvey]

So it looks like it might be something like this (favorite first): 9, 3, 5, 8, 7 but that we don't really know where the other symphonies fit in beyond 9 and 3.

Hey, I understand Beethoven started a 10th! I even saw a set that included the 10th but is said it was finished by someone else (forgot the name). Finished by someone else--that really turns me off. Wonder if it can be had in it's unfinished form?

[Peter]

So it looks like it might be something like this (favorite first): 9, 3, 5, 8, 7 but that we don't really know where the other symphonies fit in beyond 9 and 3.

I very much doubt that Beethoven thought it out in this way - an order of preference from 1-9 seems unlikely. I'm not sure for example that he would have put the 5th before the 7th and 8th. I think only the 3rd and the 9th would have stood out in this way for him because they were such big landmarks in his creative life.

Hey, I understand Beethoven started a 10th! I even saw a set that included the 10th but is said it was finished by someone else (forgot the name). Finished by someone else--that really turns me off. Wonder if it can be had in it's unfinished form?

The '10th' exists in some sketches and was realised back in the 80s by Barry Cooper - though he did a good job in constructing a work from Beethoven's scrawl, I personally don't think the result is anything like what we would have had from Beethoven. A cd of this is available from Amazon but personally I'd steer clear!