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Any fortepiano fans here? And unequal temperament?

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    Any fortepiano fans here? And unequal temperament?

    All the piano teachers and tuners I have met seem to be for modern pianos over the fortepiano, but I am the opposite.

    Listening extensively to fortepianos, Beethoven's piano works sound so much better on a (good condition of course) fortepiano. It is like they are in 3D!
    The strings resound much more fully, there are nuances in the notes that are missing in a modern piano, the emotional depth is greater.

    Once you hear Ronald Brautigam play the piano sonatas on fortepiano on unequal temperament that is IT! Hammerklavier played by him is OMG.

    And the same for him playing Haydn sonatas too!!! What a revelation that was!- Haydn came alive in away he does not on a modern piano.

    And unequal temperament- oh yes!!!

    For anyone interested Ronald can be found on you tube and Amazon.

    And there is this guy Eben Goresko who demonstrates unequal temperaments on you tube:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt6APk21tU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu5CUUFtl6A


    Chopin's funeral march is hair raising....

    Oh by the way, anyone know what temperament Beethoven used? I think I heard somewhere it was Young.


    Here's a modern piano playing the C sharp minor in Good Temperament:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiX5Xjtb7-E

    Oh I like it much better! Notice how the strings resound so much more fully?


    Here's an article about historical tunings:

    http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html


    I find what he says here fascinating, and after listeneing mostly to unequal temperements, I am inclined to agree:

    My teacher, Ben Johnston, was convinced that our tuning is responsible for much of our cultural psychology, the fact that we are so geared toward progress and action and violence and so little attuned to introspection, contentment, and acquiesence. Equal temperament could be described as the musical equivalent to eating a lot of red meat and processed sugars and watching violent action films. The music doesn't turn your attention inward, it makes you want to go out and work off your nervous energy on something.

    On a more subtle level, after I've been immersed in just intonation for a couple of weeks, equal temperament music begins to sound insipid, bland, colorless. There are only eleven types of intervals available instead of the potential several dozen that exist in even the simplest just system, and you don't get gradations of different sizes of major third or major sixths the way you do in just tuning. On a piano in just intonation, moving from one tonic to another changes the whole interval makeup of the key, and you get a really specific, visceral feel for where you are on the pitch map. That feeling disappears in bland, all-keys-the-same equal temperament.

    Far beyond the mere theoretical purity, playing in just intonation for long periods sensitizes me to a myriad colors, and coming back to the equal tempered world is like seeing everything click back into black and white. It's a disappointing readjustment.



    http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html
    Last edited by AeolianHarp; 01-24-2014, 03:48 PM.
    Ludwig van Beethoven
    Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
    Doch nicht vergessen sollten

    #2
    I don't think it has to be a case of either or - both have their strengths and weaknesses. Fortunately I have an 1814 Square piano in the same room as my 1920s Bechstein and it is very interesting to play a Haydn sonata on them and compare.
    'Man know thyself'

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Peter View Post
      I don't think it has to be a case of either or - both have their strengths and weaknesses. Fortunately I have an 1814 Square piano in the same room as my 1920s Bechstein and it is very interesting to play a Haydn sonata on them and compare.
      They do but.... to play music from the time of unequal temperament and fortepianos on modern pianos and equal temperament leaves something missing.

      Wow- you've got an 1814 piano???? OMG if I won the lotto I'd be getting something like that!! And people think I have an old piano lol- my Cecil dates from 1910 (ish).

      Is it tuned to an unequal temperament? I bet Bach sounds better on it than the 1920s one...

      Would it be cheeky to ask to see a photo of it?
      Ludwig van Beethoven
      Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
      Doch nicht vergessen sollten

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by AeolianHarp View Post
        They do but.... to play music from the time of unequal temperament and fortepianos on modern pianos and equal temperament leaves something missing.

        Wow- you've got an 1814 piano???? OMG if I won the lotto I'd be getting something like that!! And people think I have an old piano lol- my Cecil dates from 1910 (ish).

        Is it tuned to an unequal temperament? I bet Bach sounds better on it than the 1920s one...

        Would it be cheeky to ask to see a photo of it?
        I'm afraid I cheat and my piano tuner does both at the same time - I know ideally it should be unequal temperament. Anyway here's the photo (if the link works!)
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #5
          Oh it is beautiful! I wonder who its first owner was and who played it...I wonder if they played any Beethoven music on it...I am not good at counting keys to get octaves- at a guess it has about 5?

          If I were you I would have it tuned to Young Temperament! I bet it'd like it...

          Here's two of my Cecil I have just took on my phone- bit fuzzy as I sit by low lighting and candles after dark- I don't like bright electric lighting...


          I don't know how you uploaded your pic big and turned round right!
          Attached Files
          Last edited by AeolianHarp; 01-24-2014, 06:36 PM.
          Ludwig van Beethoven
          Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
          Doch nicht vergessen sollten

          Comment


            #6
            Thank you - it is 5 and a half octaves. I've had it about 7 years now and it was very sympathetically restored with only minimal work done as it was in good condition - many of these were turned into cocktail cabinets in the 60s and have been over-restored. The strings are new of course, but the dampers are pretty much all original and though I'm loathe to do it some should be replaced. It holds its tune pretty well - I was warned by my tuner that they tend to go out quickly, but this fortunately hasn't been the case. It's a pretty rare maker - Geo Dettmer and son and I've only been able to research a minimal amount about the firm who were based in London.

            P.S. To upload the picture place [IMG] and [/IMG] tags either end of the link.
            'Man know thyself'

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Peter View Post
              Thank you - it is 5 and a half octaves. I've had it about 7 years now and it was very sympathetically restored with only minimal work done as it was in good condition - many of these were turned into cocktail cabinets in the 60s and have been over-restored. The strings are new of course, but the dampers are pretty much all original and though I'm loathe to do it some should be replaced. It holds its tune pretty well - I was warned by my tuner that they tend to go out quickly, but this fortunately hasn't been the case. It's a pretty rare maker - Geo Dettmer and son and I've only been able to research a minimal amount about the firm who were based in London.

              P.S. To upload the picture place [IMG] and [/IMG] tags either end of the link.
              Well I didn't do too bad guessing its octaves! Cocktail cabinets- what sacrilige!! I am glad yours excaped that fate. I presume the dampers are leather covered ones? It must have been fairly well cared for! Is it hard to tune? My Cecil is overdamped with smaller than the modern sized tuning pins so tuners have to get creative! He is a semi tone down from concert pitch as poor Cecil wasn't well looked after in later years and got some rust on his strings. But despite all that he sounds pretty good! Well when someone who can play anyway- I'm a plonky beginner. He was created here in Liverpool by a Dutch immigrant- Nicholas van Gruisen.
              Your piano's maker sounds German or Dutch!

              Cannot figure out how to do that IMG thing- Box won't let me and cannot do it via attaching from my laptop.
              Last edited by AeolianHarp; 01-24-2014, 07:52 PM.
              Ludwig van Beethoven
              Den Sie wenn Sie wollten
              Doch nicht vergessen sollten

              Comment

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