Antique pianos versus new ones

[AeolianHarp]

This got me really fascinated:


Yet even the most attentive modern musician faces near-insoluble problems. Take, for example, the beginning of the "Pathetique" Sonata. Its dramatic opening chord is marked "fp," or "loud-soft." Czerny said that Beethoven held this chord, allowing its sound to fade before the soft succeeding strokes were allowed to begin. So powerful is the sustaining power of the modern piano that this simply doesn't happen, at least not for a long time.

Thus, a modern pianist must make do with "very loud" followed by "suddenly soft," where Beethoven seems to want the loudness to die away into softness, a vastly more dramatic and expressive effect.

Wow imagine hearing that!!! What are we missing?!

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/28/ar...ted=all&src=pm

[Peter]

Yes there are a lot of things we miss with modern pianos not least to do with tuning systems. On the other hand we do gain a lot as well such as the ability to sustain a legato line in slow melodic playing. That FP marking is quite common in late Beethoven works.

[AeolianHarp]

Yes there are a lot of things we miss with modern pianos not least to do with tuning systems. On the other hand we do gain a lot as well such as the ability to sustain a legato line in slow melodic playing. That FP marking is quite common in late Beethoven works.

Peter, I have Ronald Brautigam's fortepiano recordings of Beethoven's sonatas- the difference is OMG- they come alive in a way a modern piano cannot bring them alive. It is like an artist painting a picture and someone coming along and copying it but missing out some of the vibrancy of the colours or even missing out some of the polours entirely. Ronald also played with an unequal temperament. When I listened to his Haydn that was a revelation! I heard things in it that were not there in a modern piano!
I love Beethoven Only radio station as they play a lot of his music recorded on fortepiano and orchestras with historical instruments.
In fact I am now so used to hearing Beethoven's sonatas on fortepiano that the modern pianos sound "wrong."

There is this guy who uses loads of historical tunings and demonstrates them in this you tube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt6APk21tU

Chopin's funeral march in unequal temperament is spine tingling!!! It is like the notes are almost 3D in historical tunings.

We are missing a lot by equal temperament.

I am only a beginner on the piano so never tried to play long legato lines, so not really thought about it. My piano is from the early 1900s and so not quite modern but I suppose a long legato line can be played with success.

I am not sure what it would even sound like-I know it means smooth and the notes are tied. Surely this is in Beethoven's music?

[Peter]

I am not sure what it would even sound like-I know it means smooth and the notes are tied. Surely this is in Beethoven's music?

No legato doesn't mean the notes are tied, but smooth and joined which is what I think you meant. I'm talking about long notes in slow music - the sound decays much quicker on the fortepiano and a true legato in some of the slow movements isn't possible for this reason.

[AeolianHarp]

No legato doesn't mean the notes are tied, but smooth and joined which is what I think you meant. I'm talking about long notes in slow music - the sound decays much quicker on the fortepiano and a true legato in some of the slow movements isn't possible for this reason.

Ah yes, that's what I meant- still a novice at music theory...

Well, maybe in B's music there are not the long legatos we can do in modern pianos then?

[Peter]

No they're there in the slow movements and I think it's there that the modern piano demonstrates its superiority. Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you say about the fortepiano but there are certain limitations such as power and the legato sustainability with long notes in slow music. The Hammerklavier sonata for example is one I think that works better on the modern piano because Beethoven really was stretching the fortepiano beyond its limits.

[AeolianHarp]

No they're there in the slow movements and I think it's there that the modern piano demonstrates its superiority. Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything you say about the fortepiano but there are certain limitations such as power and the legato sustainability with long notes in slow music. The Hammerklavier sonata for example is one I think that works better on the modern piano because Beethoven really was stretching the fortepiano beyond its limits.

I understand what you say about the power of modern pianos, and I suppose even my old 1910 piano approaches the sound of a modern upright...but....there is something about the fortepiano and unequal temperament that adds a magic to the music that I don't hear in modern pianos....that includes the Hammerklavier. Yes I suppose it is logical to think it would sound better on a modern piano and yet....it doesn't...If I were to define it, it is something about the aliveness, the sheer emotional intensity that comes out, that I don't hear in a modern piano, and really I have listened to excellent pianists play it, such as Daniel Barenboim and Valentina Lisistza.

Have you heard Ronald Brautigam playing the Hammerklavier on the Paul McNulty fortepiano? He uses "a hybrid temperament somewhere between Valotti and Young"- I emailed him to ask him what temperament it is. Even my beginner's ears could tell it was not equal temperament.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdBCV89gWc


Did you watch Eben Goresko? I think he is great.

And Haydn played by Ronald is really astonishing- the strings vibrate so richly it is like they are jumping out of the speakers- I hear all the subtleties that don't come out in a modern piano.