Ducats

[thesunlover]

His grandfather's annual salary was 600 florins before 1773. He was well paid. Beethoven's annal salary around 1810 was 8,000 florins. We can see the differences inflation made.

[AeolianHarp]

Yes and inflation is a problem again today!

[Quijote]

The question is, though, roughly what would Beethoven have earned today all things being equal? Would he have been on 60k€/£/$ per year, or 75k, 100k? Can anyone give us a rough and ready estimate? I can't do maths.

[AeolianHarp]

The question is, though, roughly what would Beethoven have earned today all things being equal? Would he have been on 60k€/£/$ per year, or 75k, 100k? Can anyone give us a rough and ready estimate? I can't do maths.

I am rubbish at maths as well, but I had a go on my laptop calculator.

Thesunlover stated that Beethoven's annual salary around 1810 was 8,000 florins. so I have made calculations based on that. For those who are great at maths and probably I have done it wrong - this is how I worked it out:

1 ducat = US$150

1 ducat = 4 florins

Beethoven's annal salary around 1810 was 8,000 florins. Divide 8,000 florins by 4 to get 2,000 ducats.

2,000 ducats = USD $300000

Currency converter into British pounds = £182,509.09

Now don't laugh at me folks, if this it totally wrong as I have discalculia! I gave it a go....

So Beethoven's salary for 1810 is the equivalent of a top professional's today- which of course he was. Annoyingly, far less than what those talentless prancing pop stars today get though.

All in all he was getting a good income- no excuse for those stupid women to turn down a marriage proposal!!

[Albert Gans]

Something seems wrong with this. If he would have earned this kind of money, where did it all disappear? Why did he live in such modest surroundings and often got support from landlords to live there? Why was there not really much of that left when he died?

I find it hard to believe that he earned that kind of equivalent. Something must be lost in the devaluation of the Viennese currency.

We must be missing something in this conversation.

[AeolianHarp]

Something seems wrong with this. If he would have earned this kind of money, where did it all disappear? Why did he live in such modest surroundings and often got support from landlords to live there? Why was there not really much of that left when he died?

I find it hard to believe that he earned that kind of equivalent. Something must be lost in the devaluation of the Viennese currency.

We must be missing something in this conversation.

Yes, I am pants at maths- so it might be wrong! The rents and cost of living were very high though- and don't forget he had to pay servants' wages, hire carriages, pay for tailors, then later on Karl's expenses ( court case and education etc).I have always wondered why he never bought his own house though instead of renting- one of his landlords rented him a place that was in bad condition and he asked Schindler to contact the police!
Don't forget he was also giving money to his brothers, and had lots of medical bills throughout his life too.

[Quijote]

Thanks for having a go anyway, Aeolian; I certainly could never do the maths. I really don't think Beethoven was ever in abject poverty, and I'm pretty sure he had a 'comfortable' lifestyle. I mean, come on, renting various places at the same time, extended summer holidays in the country, eating out most days, roast veal, fine wines ...
I feel a sketch is almost upon me. Watch this space.

[Megan]

Thanks for having a go anyway, Aeolian; I certainly could never do the maths. I really don't think Beethoven was ever in abject poverty, and I'm pretty sure he had a 'comfortable' lifestyle. I mean, come on, renting various places at the same time, extended summer holidays in the country, eating out most days, roast veal, fine wines ...
I feel a sketch is almost upon me. Watch this space.

Yes, and what about the visits to the Spa Baths, in Teplice
http://www.czechtourism.com/t/teplice/ and I think also Baden Baden?





.

[Quijote]

Scene: Beethoven's apartment, Vienna, late June 1822.

LvB: Schindler, you bastard, it's too hot here in Vienna. Go out and rent me a place in the country. Money's no object, make sure it's a funky place with lots of chicks, got it?
Schindler: Yes Master. May I suggest South Patagonia?
LvB: Enough of that insolence, you cur! Get going, and make it snappy!

(A knock is heard at the door. Schindler opens it. Enter fat violinist Schuppanzigh [Schupp] with B's lawyer Dr Bach [DrB] and bank manager Herr Grabbit [HG]).

Schindler: Master, there's a trio of fellows here to see you.
LvB: For God's sake Schuppanzigh, I told you and your miserable incompetent pianist and 'cellist that the rehearsal was planned for tomorrow!
Schupp:Hi Louis, sweetie, I'm just here for the beer. These two guys just followed me in. Got any food?
LvB: Good Lord... Go on with you, the nosh is on the table next door. Don't make any bleedin' mess as you always do, capice? Anyway, who are you two dolts?
DrB:Ah Herr van Beethoven, as one of my most loyal clients I must ...
LvB: Yes, yes, get on with it, man!
HB: Herr van Beethoven, as your banker I regret to inform you that there has been a devaluation in the Viennese currency. What this means in terms of return on investment, capital gains tax ....
LvB: Cut to the chase, usurer! Give it to me straight - what's my net worth?
HB:Well, in terms of your annuity, this means ...

[Banker's monologue continues as LvB straps banker to his Graaf and hurls it out of the window...]

LvB: Come on Schindler, let's hit the bars before we take a coach to Baden.

Fin.

[AeolianHarp]

Thanks for having a go anyway, Aeolian; I certainly could never do the maths. I really don't think Beethoven was ever in abject poverty, and I'm pretty sure he had a 'comfortable' lifestyle. I mean, come on, renting various places at the same time, extended summer holidays in the country, eating out most days, roast veal, fine wines ...
I feel a sketch is almost upon me. Watch this space.

Well it might be correct- I will have to ask my mathematical friend when she comes over tomorrow.

Put it this way- he earned a darn sight more than I have ever earned ( and ever will) and had a lifestyle I have never have had- holidays, loads of eating out, renting various places at the same time etc...not that I begrudge him that life for a second- he deserved every shilling and more! I am glad he got paid well for his beautiful music.

[thesunlover]

Very true. In addition, he had servant or servants all the time in Vienna.

Thanks for having a go anyway, Aeolian; I certainly could never do the maths. I really don't think Beethoven was ever in abject poverty, and I'm pretty sure he had a 'comfortable' lifestyle. I mean, come on, renting various places at the same time, extended summer holidays in the country, eating out most days, roast veal, fine wines ...
I feel a sketch is almost upon me. Watch this space.

[AeolianHarp]

Damn it I forgot to ask my friend if the calculations I made are correct- we were too busy tuning my melody harp! I'll ask her tomorrow...

P.S- Quijote- I see B is as fond of Schindler as ever....

[Albert Gans]

I find this a very interesting discussion, there seems to still be quite a bit of fog around his finances and the signals I am reading here are not fully in line with what some biographies say. Here are some other additions to the puzzle:
http://www.oenb.at/en/img/be_embrace...m16-218229.pdf
http://lvbandmore.blogspot.be/2010/0...oven-paid.html

If I look back at the comments and combine this with what I have read elsewhere about his finances, I get the feeling that yes, he did earn good money probably, but considering he did not have really much left at his death, his expenses must have been quite high. Others in this thread already have pointed out several major expense items: his nephew Karl, his various ailments over the years (no wonder ge got fed up with some of those quacks), etc...

Somewhere, I read that he kept books quite tightly, but is there a source that actually provides us with a structured explanation of Beethoven's finances?

[AeolianHarp]

I find this a very interesting discussion, there seems to still be quite a bit of fog around his finances and the signals I am reading here are not fully in line with what some biographies say. Here are some other additions to the puzzle:
http://www.oenb.at/en/img/be_embrace...m16-218229.pdf
http://lvbandmore.blogspot.be/2010/0...oven-paid.html

Yes it is- I am always fascinated by how things have changed and the prices of things. I saw a programme on the prices of food in the tudor times and the prices of lemons I think it was, were extortionate- something ridiculous like £10 each.

If I look back at the comments and combine this with what I have read elsewhere about his finances, I get the feeling that yes, he did earn good money probably, but considering he did not have really much left at his death, his expenses must have been quite high.

Yes they were it seems- copyists cost a lot which B mentions a lot in his letters, high rents, servants' wages and their food etc, candles, firewood, carriage hire, wine, coffee, tailors' bills.....but he was not going to live the life of a peasant was he? He was an esteemed composer- but if one was a poor peasant in a cottage, I think the expenses would have been low.

Others in this thread already have pointed out several major expense items: his nephew Karl, his various ailments over the years (no wonder ge got fed up with some of those quacks), etc...

Yes those doctors probably were pretty much useless! And charged a lot. He called them asses

Somewhere, I read that he kept books quite tightly, but is there a source that actually provides us with a structured explanation of Beethoven's finances?

I don't know, but the place I imagine, would be the archives in Beethoven Haus in Bonn. He tried to keep his books but he had housekeepers who didn't make entries and so money was not always accounted for. And some biographers write B was suspicious- many a time he had reason to be! He got taken advantage of sometimes.

Oh by the way, thanks for the links- the second one is brilliant!

[AeolianHarp]

My friend has been and I showed her my calculations and I did them correct ( not bad for a mathematical dunce such as I!)