Ducats

[AeolianHarp]

I keep reading about Beethoven's payments for his works in Ducats- for example he got paid 50 Ducats for each of the late string quartets.
I am curious to know how much that would equate in today's money- I don't mean an exact translation as it would be low, but in terms of an equivalent worth, if you know what I mean. I am interested to know I suppose, if he received what he was worth.
Anyone any idea?

[thesunlover]

In 1814, Beethoven received 200 ducats from Tsarina Elisabeta Alexejewna for his 1129 concert. 200 ducats is roughly equivalent to US$30,000 today based on my research. Therefore, 1 ducat = US$150.

Please correct me here if you are more informative on this subject.

[AeolianHarp]

Ok, using my trusty computer calculator and converting to British pounds it comes to Beethoven getting £4,584.70 per string quartet! He certainly knew his own worth and his music. Good for him!

This is interesting to me as I am fascinated by comparisons of living costs then and now and how they might have changed etc. I often think it is more expensive to live now, what with council tax, rent, internet bill, gas and electric, but from reading more of his letters it seems his rents were high and although of course he didn't have electricty, gas and internet etc he had a lifestyle in some ways more expensive than mine such as servants (wish I had those lol...). Then of course, later on there were Karl's school fees and clothing etc. There were no cheap clothes shops like today and I bet tailors cost a bit. Oh and doctor's fees- no NHS! So looking at it overall, I think Beethoven had more to pay out to live than I do.

Thanks for the reply.

[thesunlover]

King of Prussia Friedrich Wilhelm III paid Beethoven 10 ducats for his 1129 concert. Shame on him!

As I remember Prince Nicholas Galitzin failed to pay the full payment he commissioned to Beethoven. I don't know how much total B received from the prince for the his late string quartets. Anyone knows?

[AeolianHarp]

King of Prussia Friedrich Wilhelm III paid Beethoven 10 ducats for his 1129 concert. Shame on him!

As I remember Prince Nicholas Galitzin failed to pay the full payment he commissioned to Beethoven. I don't know how much total B received from the prince for the his late string quartets. Anyone knows?

That's the monarchy for you!
As you know Beethoven charged him 50 ducats for each quartet. I don't know what he actually recieved, but as I am reading his letters bit by bit on my Kindle I bet he will mention what he got or didn't get! I shall come to them soon...

Prince Nicholas Galitzin commissioned the first three quartets (numbers 12, 13 and 15) and in a letter dated 9 November 1822, offered to pay Beethoven "what you think proper" for the three works. Beethoven replied 25 January 1823 with his price of 50 Ducats for each opus.[1] Beethoven composed these quartets in the sequence 12, 15, 13, 14, 16, simultaneously writing quartets 15 and 13.

Beethoven wrote the last quartets amidst failing health. In April 1825 he was bedridden, and remained ill for about a month. The illness—or more precisely, his recovery from it—is remembered for having given rise to the deeply felt slow movement of the Fifteenth Quartet, which Beethoven called "Holy song of thanks ('Heiliger Dankgesang') to the divinity, from one made well." He went on to complete the quartets now numbered Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Sixteenth. The last work Beethoven completed was the substitute final movement of the Thirteenth Quartet, which replaced the difficult Große Fuge.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets_Nos._12_-_16_and_Grosse_Fuge,_Opus_127,_130_-_135_%28Beethoven%29[/url]

[AeolianHarp]

Well I have got to the letters and B mentions that the Prince is a friend and charged him 50 ducats for each one but makes no further mention of if he got them or not in that year- however we know he was ill a lot and so seems to have been delayed writing the works.

Beethoven got a letter from the prince on March 11, 1824 asking when he would recieve the Quartet and telling Beethoven if he needed any money that he could "draw on Messrs Sieglitz & Co in St Petersburg, for the sum you wish to have, and it will be paid to your order."

[Quijote]

I too wondered what all these ducats, florins, kreutzers and so on would be worth today in €, £ or $ equivalents. I'm not sure, but I think Solomon had a chapter on this in his LvB biography. The upshot - if I recall correctly - is that Beethoven was not stinking rich, but certainly had what we might call a comfortable 'middle class' revenue.
If you want Aeolian Harp, you could Google the various professional composer associations that exist (the SACEM is the biggest in France) for an idea of what composers might charge per work (depending on if it's solo, duo, quartet, small ensemble, orchestra...).
I do recall that a joint University & Conservatory partnership in the south of France (Lyons I think it was) were offering a 2500€ prize for a 10-minute original composition for small ensemble to accompany a short film. Hope that helps to put things into context for you!

[AeolianHarp]

I too wondered what all these ducats, florins, kreutzers and so on would be worth today in €, £ or $ equivalents. I'm not sure, but I think Solomon had a chapter on this in his LvB biography. The upshot - if I recall correctly - is that Beethoven was not stinking rich, but certainly had what we might call a comfortable 'middle class' revenue.

Yes he certainly wasn't equivalent to a millionaire like these prancing popstars today- it is galling really that they earn so much more than he did, but then he wasn't interested in being a rich celeb, just wanted to write meaningful music and get a decent salary for it- which he achieved.

If you want Aeolian Harp, you could Google the various professional composer associations that exist (the SACEM is the biggest in France) for an idea of what composers might charge per work (depending on if it's solo, duo, quartet, small ensemble, orchestra...).
I do recall that a joint University & Conservatory partnership in the south of France (Lyons I think it was) were offering a 2500€ prize for a 10-minute original composition for small ensemble to accompany a short film. Hope that helps to put things into context for you!

Thanks, will take a look.

[Quijote]

A croissant today costs 1€. What would Beethoven have paid for that, hey? Not a ducat!
I have also wondered what the quality of food was like back in his day. Organic, certainly, and locally sourced!

[AeolianHarp]

A croissant today costs 1€. What would Beethoven have paid for that, hey? Not a ducat!
I have also wondered what the quality of food was like back in his day. Organic, certainly, and locally sourced!

Did they have croissants in Viennna then? I think a croissant would have been just a shilling or something.


Well, the subject of food is an interesting one- I think the food in Heiligenstadt must have been all organic, unadultarated and locally sourced- well I am assuming so. Now, what is surprising is that the food in the nineteenth century was just as polluted as today- just different pollutants!

We have made made chemicals, preservatives and e- numbers in ours but they had metals, chalk and alum in theirs! However, the sources I have read this from are of urban England- so perhaps Austria was better.

Of course you know about the lead found in Beethoven's hair- but that seems more likely to have been from his doctor's plaster dressings in his last few weeks of this life rather than lead in his food or wine.

Beethoven complained about poor quality food a lot- but I am wondering if that was down to poor cooks and his sensitive stomach rather than the food not being freshly sourced.


Here's a link to the horrors of Victorian polluted food!

http://www.victorianlondon.org/index-2012.htm

I know it's later than Beethoven and Britian but I think some of these pollutants were found in the Georgian period also.

[thesunlover]

What's the value of florins? Anyone has any idea? One Book indicates a ducat is equal to 40 florins. I doubt it.

Thanks.

[AeolianHarp]

What's the value of florins? Anyone has any idea? One Book indicates a ducat is equal to 40 florins. I doubt it.

Thanks.

I was reading one of B's letters to a "Peters" (who seems to have been a music publisher) on my Kindle this afternoon , dated 1824 and he tells that Peters :

" I wrote to you that a quartet is ready for you; as soon, therefore, as you let me know that you will accept it for the 360 florins C.M, or 80 ducats, I will at once forward it to you. My works are now paid at a higher rate than ever, besides, you have only yourself to blame in this affair."

He also writes:

"I assure you on my honour as an artist that you may place me on a level with the lowest of men, if you do not find that it is one of my very best works."

[Albert Gans]

Does all this take into account the serious inflation that took place during the Napoleonic Wars? And which basically came down to a devaluation of the Viennese currency? I remember reading that in the 1810s, Beethoven did not have a particularly good financial spell, because the stipendium he got from his protectors either dried up (bankrupcy) or became relatively valueless due to the above.

[AeolianHarp]

Does all this take into account the serious inflation that took place during the Napoleonic Wars? And which basically came down to a devaluation of the Viennese currency? I remember reading that in the 1810s, Beethoven did not have a particularly good financial spell, because the stipendium he got from his protectors either dried up (bankrupcy) or became relatively valueless due to the above.

I think so yes- he does mention in his letters about the inflation and the costs of his rents.

[thesunlover]

1 ducat = 4 florins

Make sense.

Thanks