Opus 2 n° 3

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is this factor I believe B was concerned about with the 1826 quote, not particularly the nature of the sound, for he was totally unable to hear any piano by 1826.

You should be a politician - a wonderful way of twisting a remark that doesn't fit with your views!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-11-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:

I suggest there is no comparision between the nature of the 'barn-storming' in the finale of no1 compared to the nature of that found in no3.

I wasn't comparing no.1 with no.3. Rather, Op.2, no.3 with Op.1, no.3. THe finales of both works are thrilling musical kaleidoscopes of brilliant invention. Except for their respective endings; what a masterstroke that soft ending of Op.1, no.3 is (similar to the ending of the string trio, Op.9, no.3).

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I wasn't comparing no.1 with no.3. Rather, Op.2, no.3 with Op.1, no.3. THe finales of both works are thrilling musical kaleidoscopes of brilliant invention. Except for their respective endings; what a masterstroke that soft ending of Op.1, no.3 is (similar to the ending of the string trio, Op.9, no.3).

I would say the position is the same concerning op1/3 as I stated concerning op2/1 in relation to op2/3.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You should be a politician - a wonderful way of twisting a remark that doesn't fit with your views!

The remark does not contradict any of my views regardless of how you view it. The quote is totally ambiguous in any case, for B does not go any deeper into his meaning. I would say my suggestion fits in better considering the time he said it, and bearing in mind B's remarks concerning the piano over his entire life. You cannot deny the Streicher quote. These instruments had a sound even less 'modern'than his later pianos, with its origins in the South German school of piano. I suggest it is your own assessment that is 'twisted' for it presumes more than my own position. Regardless, as as I have always said, B's ultimate ideal taste is not the issue, the issue is what instrument did B compose his music for. The answer is clear to those without prejudice, in fact the fact that it is the subject of continual debate still staggers me after all these years.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-11-2001).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
The remark does not contradict any of my views regardless of how you view it.

Well if you view it as meaning the instrument's technical abilities, tone capacity etc.. (which seems to me what he was getting at) then it at least challenges your assertion that B's sonatas should not be performed on modern instruments.

You cannot deny the Streicher quote. These instruments had a sound even less 'modern'than his later pianos, with its origins in the South German school of piano.

I don't deny it - B obviously regarded the Streicher pianos as the best at that time.

I suggest it is your own assessment that is 'twisted' for it presumes more than my own position.

Why your assumption that he was referring to the durability is less 'twisted' than mine is rather puzzling.

Regardless, as as I have always said, B's ultimate ideal taste is not the issue, the issue is what instrument did B compose his music for. The answer is clear to those without prejudice, in fact the fact that it is the subject of continual debate still staggers me after all these years.



It is the subject of continual debate as those with prejudice will not countenance Beethoven performed on modern instruments. Those without prejudice are prepared to listen to both and form their own opinion as to which they prefer without being told there is no choice in the matter. My view has changed thanks to your enthusiasm for period instruments - at one time I was definitely not impressed but having heard different makes of fortepiano I realise there is a huge difference between them and so far I like the Walter copy best. We differ as I see no reason why B's works shouldn't also be performed on modern instruments (which also vary considerably) and Bosendorfer is my preference for B. Your argument that B's works shouldn't be performed on modern PFs because he had the misfortune to die a few decades before the modern design was patented is dubious at best - we simply do not know what he would have thought, so why should we conclude that he would be against using them when most leading musicians of the time were in favour of the changes?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-12-2001).]

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by Rod:
The remark does not contradict any of my views regardless of how you view it.

Well if you view it as meaning the instrument's technical abilities, tone capacity etc.. (which seems to me what he was getting at) then it at least challenges your assertion that B's sonatas should not be performed on modern instruments.

You cannot deny the Streicher quote. These instruments had a sound even less 'modern'than his later pianos, with its origins in the South German school of piano.

I don't deny it - B obviously regarded the Streicher pianos as the best at that time.

I suggest it is your own assessment that is 'twisted' for it presumes more than my own position.

Why your assumption that he was referring to the durability is less 'twisted' than mine is rather puzzling.

Regardless, as as I have always said, B's ultimate ideal taste is not the issue, the issue is what instrument did B compose his music for. The answer is clear to those without prejudice, in fact the fact that it is the subject of continual debate still staggers me after all these years.



It is the subject of continual debate as those with prejudice will not countenance Beethoven performed on modern instruments. Those without prejudice are prepared to listen to both and form their own opinion as to which they prefer without being told there is no choice in the matter. My view has changed thanks to your enthusiasm for period instruments - at one time I was definitely not impressed but having heard different makes of fortepiano I realise there is a huge difference between them and so far I like the Walter copy best. We differ as I see no reason why B's works shouldn't also be performed on modern instruments (which also vary considerably) and Bosendorfer is my preference for B. Your argument that B's works shouldn't be performed on modern PFs because he had the misfortune to die a few decades before the modern design was patented is dubious at best - we simply do not know what he would have thought, so why should we conclude that he would be against using them when most leading musicians of the time were in favour of the changes?

And you talk about me twisting!!! I suppose B was thinking of a Steinway even when composing WoO47? I'm not going to argue this point all over again with someone who knows I can comfortably contradict his position in its entireity. Check the archives if you can't remember.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

It is the subject of continual debate as those with prejudice will not countenance Beethoven performed on modern instruments. Those without prejudice are prepared to listen to both and form their own opinion as to which they prefer without being told there is no choice in the matter. My view has changed thanks to your enthusiasm for period instruments - We differ as I see no reason why B's works shouldn't also be performed on modern instruments (which also vary considerably) and Bosendorfer is my preference for B. Your argument that B's works shouldn't be performed on modern PFs because he had the misfortune to die a few decades before the modern design was patented is dubious at best - we simply do not know what he would have thought, so why should we conclude that he would be against using them when most leading musicians of the time were in favour of the changes?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I am sure that if he have lived 20 years more he would have composed for a Bösendorfer !
The house Bösendorfer was created in.... 1828.

Beethoven was a modern spirit (remember his interess for Mäelzel metronome, his composition for an mechanical orchestra....)

I am also without prejudice. I can hear B. played on a GOOD period piano, and on a GOOD Grand Bösendorfer.... by GOOD pianists.

Thanks to you Rod I am listening more period pianos in this moment BUT as fast all the concerts halls and conservatories does have modern pianos, we must accept it and do our best with them.

It is moving to hear the sound of a Graf, naturally, because we can imagine "how" it was at HIS time. But I remain sure that B. in front of a Gran Bösendorfer would have been thrilled .



------------------
Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
And you talk about me twisting!!! I suppose B was thinking of a Steinway even when composing WoO47? I'm not going to argue this point all over again with someone who knows I can comfortably contradict his position in its entireity. Check the archives if you can't remember.

I know what your arguments are and you simply cannot prove whether or not be would have approved of or even preferred the modern instrument. All you state is the obvious - that he wrote for the instruments of his day. Your main argument is that he would have written the piano works differently - yes, but not drastically and as I've pointed out, mainly the pedalling which modern performers should take into account. Had he had a modern piano each of the sonatas would still be entirely recognisable as the same works we know. What would have made a far greater difference would have been if he hadn't been deaf, then I'm sure things would be very different indeed.

You have convinced me of why we should listen to period instruments but you haven't convinced me that we should never use modern.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-12-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
All you state is the obvious - that he wrote for the instruments of his day. Your main argument is that he would have written the piano works differently - yes, but not drastically and as I've pointed out, mainly the pedalling which modern performers should take into account. Had he had a modern piano each of the sonatas would still be entirely recognisable as the same works we know. What would have made a far greater difference would have been if he hadn't been deaf, then I'm sure things would be very different indeed.

You have convinced me of why we should listen to period instruments but you haven't convinced me that we should never use modern.

Who said never use modern???? I'm glad you admit B was composing for the pianos of the day, pianos which were in many respects very different sonically and physically than the ones we have today, with much smaller keys and shallower key depression lighter tone and action; pianos which require a different playing technique than todays. I can tell you for certain that Beethoven would have regarded a 1927 Steinway as totally unplayable. He would have mocked for certain Steinway's double action. There is no doubt that certain effects B asks for can only really be achieved on the old pianos, imperfect or not. I fail to see the logic of how a piano designed for Rachmaninov will be equally suited to Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven. It's all too convenient Peter, which is the whole problem with the musical establishment and those with a vested interest in the status quo (to which yourself could be included). Fortunately I am free from vested interests. I presume if everyone wanted to play fortepianos you'd be out of a job?

Modern pianos are used out of convenience to play everything from every era, harpsichord music too. That's fair enough but on-one is going to convince me that the Steinway has made all past keyboard instruments obsolete, quite the contrary in fact. How you can say all of B's compositions would have been virtually the same written on a modern piano is beyond me, the extended keyboard from 5 to 5.5 octaves alone transformed B's compositional process for the piano - what would he have done with an 7.5 octave Steinway at the the age of 22?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-12-2001).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Who said never use modern???? I'm glad you admit B was composing for the pianos of the day, pianos which were in many respects very different sonically and physically than the ones we have today, with much smaller keys and shallower key depression lighter tone and action; pianos which require a different playing technique than todays.

Well your comments are hardly an endorsement of modern, so perhaps we might conclude you said never use modern unless you are now saying it's ok to? Of course there are differences but not so vast that an artist such as Bardura-Skoda I believe manages to play on both. There are differences in touch between modern instruments as well. What differences in playing technique are you referring to?

I can tell you for certain that Beethoven would have regarded a 1927 Steinway as totally unplayable. He would have mocked for certain Steinway's double action.

Strange that you should single out the date 1927 and the make Steinway, but since you have, perhaps you could explain how you are so certain B would have been unable to play it? (aside from the obvious fact that he'd been dead 100 years!)Are you implying that he could have managed an 1850's Steinway but a 1927 instrument is unplayable? I was under the impression that double action was patented by Erard in 1821 - there's no record of Beethoven's reaction to this. Even the cast-iron frame wasn't totally down to Steinway as Chickering first introduced this, though makers had been experimenting during B's lifetime.

There is no doubt that certain effects B asks for can only really be achieved on the old pianos, imperfect or not. I fail to see the logic of how a piano designed for Rachmaninov will be equally suited to Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.

Designed for Rachmaninov? Well you are now doing what you accuse me of - the modern Steinway came in in the 1850's and R came in in 1873!

It's all too convenient Peter, which is the whole problem with the musical establishment and those with a vested interest in the status quo (to which yourself could be included). Fortunately I am free from vested interests. I presume if everyone wanted to play fortepianos you'd be out of a job?

It is preposterous to suggest that someone who plays a pianoforte is incapable of playing a fortepiano - it would only be a matter of adjusting touch, something that pianists have to do all the time for different instruments and composers anyway. Pianists of Liszt's generation had to adjust from the fortepiano to the pianoforte - the Bechsteins that were gifted to him every year in later life were obviously different instruments from those he dazzled the European cities with in the 1830's. The basic principles of technique are the same - B's use of a rounded hand playing close to the key for legato is exactly the same position taught on modern pianos. Bach's insistence on playing with the tip of the finger is also standard practice. Of course it would be strange at first and adjustments such as weight and pedalling would have to be made.

Modern pianos are used out of convenience to play everything from every era, harpsichord music too. That's fair enough but on-one is going to convince me that the Steinway has made all past keyboard instruments obsolete, quite the contrary in fact.

I actually agree with you, but Steinway isn't the only modern piano anymore than Graf is the only fortepiano.

How you can say all of B's compositions would have been virtually the same written on a modern piano is beyond me, the extended keyboard from 5 to 5.5 octaves alone transformed B's compositional process for the piano - what would he have done with an 7.5 octave Steinway at the the age of 22?


Well according to you he would have found it unplayable so he probably would have demolished it in a fit of rage - it's most likely he wouldn't have written a single note for such a mockery of an instrument anyway!

P.S. I do love that Walter copy, listening to it as I write this! I presume it has a knee operated pedal so that would take some practice!

------------------
'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


Well your comments are hardly an endorsement of modern, so perhaps we might conclude you said never use modern unless you are now saying it's ok to? Of course there are differences but not so vast that an artist such as Bardura-Skoda I believe manages to play on both. There are differences in touch between modern instruments as well. What differences in playing technique are you referring to?

I think the differences are significant enough, I'm no pianist but I can tell you for sure you can't just switch from one to the other and back and play with any level of quality. I've never heard Badura-Skoda play Beethoven on a modern piano, but he has his own varied fp collection, so he has time to practice on many different types.

Originally posted by Peter:

Strange that you should single out the date 1927 and the make Steinway, but since you have, perhaps you could explain how you are so certain B would have been unable to play it? (aside from the obvious fact that he'd been dead 100 years!)Are you implying that he could have managed an 1850's Steinway but a 1927 instrument is unplayable? I was under the impression that double action was patented by Erard in 1821 - there's no record of Beethoven's reaction to this. Even the cast-iron frame wasn't totally down to Steinway as Chickering first introduced this, though makers had been experimenting during B's lifetime.

I merely picked 1927 because it is 100 years after b's death!!! For I have no idea when you think the piano suddenly came of age. A friend of mine has a 1901 Steinway that is by any standards difficult to play. More is made of the double escapement than should be the case, it did not suddenly give the piano a Viennese-like spontanaity, the action is was still heavy and the sound cumbersome, and does not alter the other physical differences between the 2 schools. Bosendorfer and Streicher were making Viennese actioned models at least until the 1860's. Could not these be considered as the ideal in B's mind and not the English based model?

Originally posted by Peter:

Designed for Rachmaninov? Well you are now doing what you accuse me of - the modern Steinway came in in the 1850's and R came in in 1873!

The modern sound was designed to accomodate the requirements of the late Romantic taste and has changed little since, but I hope you don't think that the 'modern Steinway' of 1850 is the same as todays?

Originally posted by Peter:

It is preposterous to suggest that someone who plays a pianoforte is incapable of playing a fortepiano - it would only be a matter of adjusting touch, something that pianists have to do all the time for different instruments and composers anyway. Pianists of Liszt's generation had to adjust from the fortepiano to the pianoforte - the Bechsteins that were gifted to him every year in later life were obviously different instruments from those he dazzled the European cities with in the 1830's. The basic principles of technique are the same - B's use of a rounded hand playing close to the key for legato is exactly the same position taught on modern pianos. Bach's insistence on playing with the tip of the finger is also standard practice. Of course it would be strange at first and adjustments such as weight and pedalling would have to be made.

Who said a pf player can't play an fp, I suggest however that as a pf only player, you would not be in a position to teach the fp to the same standard. The fact that the adjustment is required goes to show how different the instruments are. If heard pros say much the same on this matter.

Originally posted by Peter:

I actually agree with you, but Steinway isn't the only modern piano anymore than Graf is the only fortepiano.

Steinway has had a colossal monopoly for years. Bosendorfer has all but sold out sonically, the German makes too do not sound different enough as far as I am concerned. It's all the same heavy unengaging sound. No good for Beethoven.

Originally posted by Peter:

Well according to you he would have found it unplayable so he probably would have demolished it in a fit of rage - it's most likely he wouldn't have written a single note for such a mockery of an instrument anyway!

The double action makes it doubly bad. The instrument would be useful to B if he became a Jazz player...maybe...

Originally posted by Peter:

P.S. I do love that Walter copy, listening to it as I write this! I presume it has a knee operated pedal so that would take some practice!

And now you say this!!! Knee levers are not the ideal way I'm sure, pedals must be better for the player. Certainly the Viennese piano buying public developed a taste for as many pedals as possible!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
I think the differences are significant enough, I'm no pianist but I can tell you for sure you can't just switch from one to the other and back and play with any level of quality. I've never heard Badura-Skoda play Beethoven on a modern piano, but he has his own varied fp collection, so he has time to practice on many different types.

Well aside from stroking a key in the Beethovenhaus I've never touched an Fp (much as I would love to!) so I can't speak with any real authority, but the fact that B-Skoda can do it proves it is possible - the differences aren't that huge technically - we're not talking about going from the piano to a double bass! Violinists are able to switch to the Viola and this involves all sorts of adjustments.


I merely picked 1927 because it is 100 years after b's death!!! For I have no idea when you think the piano suddenly came of age. A friend of mine has a 1901 Steinway that is by any standards difficult to play. More is made of the double escapement than should be the case, it did not suddenly give the piano a Viennese-like spontanaity, the action is was still heavy and the sound cumbersome, and does not alter the other physical differences between the 2 schools. Bosendorfer and Streicher were making Viennese actioned models at least until the 1860's. Could not these be considered as the ideal in B's mind and not the English based model?

Well I presume your friend's 1901 Steinway is fully reconditioned? Even so, there are differences even between pianos of the same make. Well I think it was 1853 when Steinway made the big change with overstringing - they also adopted fully the cast iron frame and made some modifications to Erards 1821 patent on double escapement. Since that date the changes have been largely superficial with minor modifications here and there. Of course it is possible B would have been more sympathetic to the Bosendorfer of the 1860's - I'm more sympathetic myself to the modern Bosendorfer over the modern Steinway, certainly for the Classical repertoire. I'm fully aware that Beethoven was more in favour of the Viennese action over the English, his waning enthusiasm for his Broadwood confirms this and having heard both these types of instruments I agree with him.


The modern sound was designed to accomodate the requirements of the late Romantic taste and has changed little since, but I hope you don't think that the 'modern Steinway' of 1850 is the same as todays?

As I said above there have been few significant changes in design since the 1850's - the instrument of today is basically (though with some modifications) the same. You seem to disagree with that so what are the major differences in your view between an 1850's Steinway and one of today?


Who said a pf player can't play an fp, I suggest however that as a pf only player, you would not be in a position to teach the fp to the same standard. The fact that the adjustment is required goes to show how different the instruments are. If heard pros say much the same on this matter.

Well obviosly if I was going to teach the FP I'd have to do a bit of research before investing in one - I think I'd be tempted with that Walter copy - then I'd have to practice and rethink my approach, but that wouldn't be such a difficult task - getting the money to buy one would!


Steinway has had a colossal monopoly for years. Bosendorfer has all but sold out sonically, the German makes too do not sound different enough as far as I am concerned. It's all the same heavy unengaging sound. No good for Beethoven.

I think there are real differences in the sounds of different makes and Steinway certainly doesn't have a monopoly on the average family piano.


And now you say this!!! Knee levers are not the ideal way I'm sure, pedals must be better for the player. Certainly the Viennese piano buying public developed a taste for as many pedals as possible!

It's fortunate that that change at least occured in B's lifetime or you'd be insisiting on knee action!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
Violinists are able to switch to the Viola and this involves all sorts of adjustments.

Indeed, and when I tried it, it was far more intuitive that I would have thought. My fingers found the right places on the fingerboard almost right away. The hardest part was dealing with the extra thickness of the instrument.


[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Claudie MICAULT]

My man played on period pianos at an exposition here in Saarbrücken (from the House NEUPERT who construct in Bamberg and in Nürnberg cembali, spinette, Klavichorde and Hammerflügel -Mozart's one and Graf from 1822 since1868). It was the first time he proved several "copy" of period instruments. He played immediatly the whole "Mondschein".
At the beginning he felt uncomfortable because he does have big hands with strong fingers, and he was at ease, being used to the normal pedals. But after having played for one hour (even opus 110 and some extracts of Appassionata) he told that if one can study a few monthes on those pianos, it would be possible to make all the colors and effects requested....
It does exist a very nice catalog (with wonderful fotos) from NEUPERT (Historische Tasteninstrumente. I think you know that Rod !

I saw, going on Bösendorfer's site in Internet that they have built a "Beethoven Society of Europe"... are you aware of this Peter ?




------------------
Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
[B
It's fortunate that that change at least occured in B's lifetime or you'd be insisiting on knee action!

[/B]

B*llsh*t!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin