Eroica and history (and good editors)

[montague]

I am reading Beethoven: Eroica Symphony by Thomas Sipe. In his sifting of various accounts of the Napoleon dedication there appears to be a rather glaring "flip-flop" of two historical figures. Pg 33 "Carl Czerny wrote: 'According to Dr. Bertolini... the death of the English General Abercromby gave Beethoven the first idea for the Symphonia eroica. Thus the naval (not march like) character of the theme and of the entire first movement.'" Later, in the same paragraph Sipe writes "Otto Jahn published a reminiscence in which Bertolini claimed that '...Nelson's death in the battle of Abukir occasioned the funeral march." Now, Abercromby NOT Nelson died at Abukir, and Nelson, (being the navy man), NOT Abercromby must be the source of the supposed "naval (not march like)" theme. Sipe's endnotes reveal that both stories are "cited in" Constantin Floros's Beethovens Eroica und Prometheus Musik. My question (finally): Who made this obvious goof-up? Are Sipe and his editor the culprits, or his source Floros, or Floros's sources Czerny and Jahn (anybody read this stuff?)? Or does the error go all the way back to old Dr. Bertolini?

At any rate, I find the idea that the opening Eroica theme is "naval, not march like" to be very compelling. Certainly triple meter is often employed to indicate the gentle swaying of a boat on the water. Hugo Wolf's "Der Freund" comes to mind, but I disgress ... Any thoughts?


------------------
Montague

[Peter]

Antony Hopkins also questions the reliability of Bertolini and points out this discrepancy in his accounts. Nelson of course died after the Eroica was written so it seems unlikely he was the inspiration for the funeral march. Abercrombie also seems an unlikely choice - Hopkins suggests that 'in memory of a great man' was actually a general reference to the Austrian dead - an unknown warrior. I actually think the reference is to Napoleon - the pre Emperor Napoleon who in Beethoven's eyes was now dead.

I don't really see any naval connection with any of the movements!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by montague:
I am reading Beethoven: Eroica Symphony by Thomas Sipe. In his sifting of various accounts of the Napoleon dedication there appears to be a rather glaring "flip-flop" of two historical figures. Pg 33 "Carl Czerny wrote: 'According to Dr. Bertolini... the death of the English General Abercromby gave Beethoven the first idea for the Symphonia eroica. Thus the naval (not march like) character of the theme and of the entire first movement.'" Later, in the same paragraph Sipe writes "Otto Jahn published a reminiscence in which Bertolini claimed that '...Nelson's death in the battle of Abukir occasioned the funeral march." Now, Abercromby NOT Nelson died at Abukir, and Nelson, (being the navy man), NOT Abercromby must be the source of the supposed "naval (not march like)" theme. Sipe's endnotes reveal that both stories are "cited in" Constantin Floros's Beethovens Eroica und Prometheus Musik. My question (finally): Who made this obvious goof-up? Are Sipe and his editor the culprits, or his source Floros, or Floros's sources Czerny and Jahn (anybody read this stuff?)? Or does the error go all the way back to old Dr. Bertolini?

At any rate, I find the idea that the opening Eroica theme is "naval, not march like" to be very compelling. Certainly triple meter is often employed to indicate the gentle swaying of a boat on the water. Hugo Wolf's "Der Freund" comes to mind, but I disgress ... Any thoughts?

I think this whole story is nonsence. There is no reason or logic to any of it.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by montague:
I am reading Beethoven: Eroica Symphony by Thomas Sipe. In his sifting of various accounts of the Napoleon dedication there appears to be a rather glaring "flip-flop" of two historical figures. Pg 33 "Carl Czerny wrote: 'According to Dr. Bertolini... the death of the English General Abercromby gave Beethoven the first idea for the Symphonia eroica. Thus the naval (not march like) character of the theme and of the entire first movement.'" Later, in the same paragraph Sipe writes "Otto Jahn published a reminiscence in which Bertolini claimed that '...Nelson's death in the battle of Abukir occasioned the funeral march." Now, Abercromby NOT Nelson died at Abukir, and Nelson, (being the navy man), NOT Abercromby must be the source of the supposed "naval (not march like)" theme. Sipe's endnotes reveal that both stories are "cited in" Constantin Floros's Beethovens Eroica und Prometheus Musik. My question (finally): Who made this obvious goof-up? Are Sipe and his editor the culprits, or his source Floros, or Floros's sources Czerny and Jahn (anybody read this stuff?)? Or does the error go all the way back to old Dr. Bertolini?

At any rate, I find the idea that the opening Eroica theme is "naval, not march like" to be very compelling. Certainly triple meter is often employed to indicate the gentle swaying of a boat on the water. Hugo Wolf's "Der Freund" comes to mind, but I disgress ... Any thoughts?

This is probabbly not even true. It's just nonsense.



------------------
freedom for all- Ludwig Van Beethoven

[Claudie MICAULT]

It is just another invention !

------------------
Claudie

[PDG]

Oh, I don't know. I often think of Captain Pugwash when listening to the Eroica.

Ahoy there, me hearties. Ooh-aarr......