The 4th????

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Even as one of "the 9", it still eclipses (IMHO) Mozart's Jupiter, although I prefer the 2nd.

I prefer the 4th to the 2nd. The Mozart comparison serves little purpose as we can't even agree on any order of preference with B's Symphonies let alone dragging another composer into the equation! You might just as well have mentioned Mahler, though I probably would have agreed with you there!




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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Beethoven considered Op.131 to be his finest Quartet, so much so that he didn't approve of the enquiry.

Nevertheless Peter is correct also with his respective quote attributed to B.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Bob the Composer]

Having spent some more time listening to the 4th, I must now issue a retraction. The symphone does have ONE memorable part, and that is the opening. Also, I think the 3rd movement has fragments that resemble the famous four notes of the 5th symphony. I will come back with more later.

Rod, if I can, I will send it to you, but I think you would probably like my 2nd better. It is closer to the spirit of Beethoven than the first 3 movements of the 4th. If anyone's curious as to how many I've written, I have written 5, and am now sketching a 6th.

In case you are curious to know what my CURRENT ranking is, it is 5, 9, 3, 2, 7, 8, 1,6, 4. It changes at least twice a month, and to be honest, I haven't listed to 6 in quite a while, so it is up for reassessment. Once again, I await your comments.

Bob

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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
Having spent some more time listening to the 4th, I must now issue a retraction. The symphone does have ONE memorable part, and that is the opening.

Spend some more time and you might remember the whole thing!

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'Man know thyself'

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by Peter:
Spend some more time and you might remember the whole thing!

I have since had the chance to listen to all of it, and except for the excerpts mentioned above, I found only one other part that was slightly memorable, and that was in the first movement, second subject. The first three movements are otherwise quite good, but the fourth is sometimes a bit dull. It could be in part the recording, but I think that some of it is in the composition itself, as none of the thematic material in that movement stands out at all. Please forgive me for my blindness, but I guess I just can't see!


Bob


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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 11-10-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
[B It could be in part the recording, but I think that some of it is in the composition itself, as none of the thematic material in that movement stands out at all. Please forgive me for my blindness, but I guess I just can't see!

Bob

[/B]

It certainly isn't Beethoven who is at fault in this wonderful work, but your recording may be. I'm surprised you were so unfamiliar with this piece anyway Bob, but I can only say perservere with it and you will be richly rewarded! Have you tried following it through with the score?

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
The first three movements are otherwise quite good, but the fourth is sometimes a bit dull. It could be in part the recording, but I think that some of it is in the composition itself, as none of the thematic material in that movement stands out at all. Please forgive me for my blindness, but I guess I just can't see!


Bob

Your remind me the critic rhe french composer Claude DEBUSSY wrote when he heard the 6th : "It is better to have a walk in the country than to listen to this symphony of Mr Beethoven"....

Anyway, some people do like Debussy's music !
I don't, even played by good pianists.

Please, just not listen the music but read the score, as a composer you may find a lot of interesting things in the 4th !

"Dull" is a term difficult to associate to Beethoven's music : even when it is bad recorded or performed a professionnal musician can make the difference and recognize his superiority (Beethoven's superiority, naturally !!!)


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Claudie

[Bob the Composer]

I listened to it again to today, (I have not listened to it with the score recently, however, I think I have listened to all 9 with score at one time or another). As I have been a 'composer' for a long time, I can generally pick up interesting details on my own without a score, and the 4th is no exception. Although most of the melodies may not be extremely memorable, I recognize the fine quality and origionality of the other aspects of the score (particularly the orchestration; I am always finding that I can still learn much from Beethoven on orchestration). The first and third movements are hardly dull, and now that I've listened to it again, I realize that perhaps dull was the wrong word for the 4th movement, it was the tempo mostly, and the fact that it was followed immediately by an extremely intense recording of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Having listened to both, I notice now more than ever the similarities between the opening of the 5th, and a motif in the 3rd movement of the 4th, the one that goes DAAA DAAA dadada DA! I am pondering over this similarity, and will come back with more later (after folowing along with the score, of course).

Bob <font color="red"> <font size=3>



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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[Bob the Composer]

I have now listened to it with score. It was a wonderful experience, (as with all Beethoven works), and I come back from it feeling much the same as before, that it is a very memorable piece overall, but with very few memorable melodies\motives. It is the emotional experience that is memorable, which I have said before. While following along with the score, I used my metronome to check the tempos in relation to the score. After doing that, I think the markings in my score are a little off, as the main body of the first movement is marked too slow (crotchet = 160), and the last movement a little too fast (same metronome marking, if these markings seem a little confusing, please note that I translate all metronome markings into crotchet markings when studying scores, making them easier to study.) The actual recording takes the main body of the first movement faster, and the 4th movement slower, but at a decent pace. Every other tempo is slower than the marked tempos, so I do believe this recording is a little off, despite the fact that all repeats are properly observed.

Bob


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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
Having listened to both, I notice now more than ever the similarities between the opening of the 5th, and a motif in the 3rd movement of the 4th, the one that goes DAAA DAAA dadada DA! I am pondering over this similarity, and will come back with more later (after folowing along with the score, of course).

Bob

I'm pleased you've pointed out the wonderful orchestration in this symphony - I've already mentioned the use of the timpani, but what about that slow movement? The very opening with that whole bar up-beat dotted rhythm is striking, then of course comes that beautiful melody. What about that outburst at bar 50 which magically arrives at Gb major? How can anyone forget the wonderful Clarinet entry accompanied by pizzicato strings or the magical coda? I think you are right to mention the 5th as a reason this work made less impact on you as that work is so overwhelming, but the 4th is a subtle and sunny piece that grows on you the more familiar you become with it.

P.S. This post came out red at first!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-13-2001).]

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm pleased you've pointed out the wonderful orchestration in this symphony - I've already mentioned the use of the timpani, but what about that slow movement? The very opening with that whole bar up-beat dotted rhythm is striking, then of course comes that beautiful melody. What about that outburst at bar 50 which magically arrives at Gb major? How can anyone forget the wonderful Clarinet entry accompanied by pizzicato strings or the magical coda? I think you are right to mention the 5th as a reason this work made less impact on you as that work is so overwhelming, but the 4th is a subtle and sunny piece that grows on you the more familiar you become with it.

P.S. This post came out red at first!

<font color="red"> The thing I like most about the slow movement is then ending. And your message icon was a light bulb! I feel I should warn you, if you leave that on too long, you will turn red with sunburn!
<font color="blue">
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
<font color="green">

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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.