The 4th????

[chopithoven]

Please recommend me a recording of the 4th to be delighted with this symphony that is, as most of you say, one of Beethoven's best.

Thanks

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Please recommend me a recording of the 4th to be delighted with this symphony that is, as most of you say, one of Beethoven's best.

Thanks

They are all the best, each perfect in itself. There are plenty of No4's to choose from, but I can recommend the whole symphonies set by the Hanover Band on Nimbus records. You will not be disappointed. I think the whole question of questioning the piece is quite ridiculous! If it were Mahler or Tchaikovsky I could understand, but questioning a Beethoven symphony... well... LOL!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-30-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
They are all the best, each perfect in itself.

I believe B gave a similar response when asked which was the best amongst the late quartets.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Please recommend me a recording of the 4th to be delighted with this symphony that is, as most of you say, one of Beethoven's best.

Thanks

I have a recording by the Philharmonia Slavonica Conductor: Henry Adolph which I really enjoy.

Joy

[Bob the Composer]

I will listen to it again at the next opportunity to look for these melodies you all speak of. I admit that I said the above comments after having listened to it only once, and I might have missed some things. Nonetheless, I must disagree with Chris and Peter on one item; as I have said, before, I believe the 2nd to be among the best of the symphonies (next to 3, 5, and 9, of course) and in my opinion you underate it.

Rod, my 4th symphony is not yet complete, as I have only written a rough draft of it, and will make some major revisions to it, especially in the fourth movement, which right now is little more than a bad imitation of the corresponding movement of Beethoven's 9th. It can be improved. And it does not suffer from a lack of melodies, in fact, it may be suffering from an overabundance of them (if there is one thing I am good at right now, it is writing melodies). Have a nice day!

Bob

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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 10-31-2001).]

[Rod]

The intellectual challenge (if challenge it indeed be) to the music lover is the ability to be able to differentiate between a genuinely lame composition, and a good composition that is performed lamely. If I made my assessment of B's works purely on performances I've heard then I could probably find fault in almost every composition. Whereas the truth is that Beethoven never penned a duff note. That's a big difference!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
...as I have said, before, I believe the 2nd to be among the best of the symphonies (next to 3, 5, and 9, of course)...

So you think the 2nd is superior to the 7th? I think that's REALLY a stretch. Yes, the 2nd is great, but it's not even in the same league as the 3rd or the 9th.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
Nonetheless, I must disagree with Chris and Peter on one item; as I have said, before, I believe the 2nd to be among the best of the symphonies (next to 3, 5, and 9, of course) and in my opinion you underate it.

Bob

As I said previously all of B's 9 Symphonies are great and it's understandable that people will put them in different orders of preference. I don't under-rate the 2nd, but I think you are doing just that with 6,7 & 8 - all of which are superior to no.2, fine as that work is.

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'Man know thyself'

[David]

Well, this is my second day on this message board, and my second posting. (What a great place!)

I'll just make some general comments, if I may.

Regarding the recapitulation in the first movement of B's 4th, I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that B started the recapitulation (by modulating into the tonic) well before most of the listeners realize that they are there. That multi-bar passage (I forget how many) in which the tympani are introduced and which ultimately leads us back to the main theme is in the tonic key, and therefore is the start of the recap, not the sounding of the main theme (as some might think). Thats just another joke he plays on us. Compare that to the recap of Eroica's first movement, where the contrasting keys of the development's ending and the tonic of the recap's horns are clashed and superimposed. Surely that must have been a mistake. Not a chance! That was brilliance, as was the imperceptable transition into the recap mentioned above. There is no mediocrity to be found anywhere. (All right, that may not have been a general comment.)

I'm curious to see where the discussion on 'ranking' the symphonies will go. Just because some of them are "the greatest" (3, 5, 9) doesn't diminish the greatness of the others. Each has it's own perfection, and together they are a body of work that words fail to adequately describe. However, I can see where we each would have our personal favorites, and perhaps even ones that we don't care for as much as the others.

David

[Peter]

Originally posted by David:
Regarding the recapitulation in the first movement of B's 4th, I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that B started the recapitulation (by modulating into the tonic) well before most of the listeners realize that they are there. David

That was the point I was trying to make by referring to the enharmonic use of timpani - whilst the strings are in B major, the timpani is playing a Bb (the tonic) which enharmonically is A# - this clever device enables B cunningly to bring in the tonic key as you say, before most realise it.

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'Man know thyself'

[David]

My appologies Peter. I thought perhaps that's what you were referring to, but I wasn't sure. It's clear to me that I'm not as musically literate (and clear to you I'm sure) as many of the members here. Just hope I don't make a fool of myself :-)

David

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:

Rod, my 4th symphony is not yet complete, as I have only written a rough draft of it, and will make some major revisions to it, especially in the fourth movement, which right now is little more than a bad imitation of the corresponding movement of Beethoven's 9th. It can be improved. And it does not suffer from a lack of melodies, in fact, it may be suffering from an overabundance of them (if there is one thing I am good at right now, it is writing melodies). Have a nice day!

Bob

You will record its (Bob's 4th) premiere and send a copy to me for assessment. It will take a great composition indeed to allow its writer, who can assess B's 4th in the manner you did above, to survive the most extreme and embarrassing ridicule! I know you will rise to the challenge ahead and produce a masterpiece!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-01-2001).]

[PDG]

We've been here before. Certainly, sandwiched as it is by the 3rd and the 5th, the 4th does come across as somewhat lightweight, although, of course, all things are relative; had the 4th been his only symphony, it would doubtless be regarded as one of the all-time greatest. Even as one of "the 9", it still eclipses (IMHO) Mozart's Jupiter, although I prefer the 2nd.

And it shouldn't be forgotten that he was seriously distracted by Josephine Brunswick at the time of the 4th's composition.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I believe B gave a similar response when asked which was the best amongst the late quartets.

Beethoven considered Op.131 to be his finest Quartet, so much so that he didn't approve of the enquiry.

[Peter]

Originally posted by David:
My appologies Peter. I thought perhaps that's what you were referring to, but I wasn't sure. It's clear to me that I'm not as musically literate (and clear to you I'm sure) as many of the members here. Just hope I don't make a fool of myself :-)

David

Nothing to apologise for David - you put it far clearer than I did as I tend to get bogged down in technical terms being a musician!

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'Man know thyself'