The 4th????

[cbarb]

Fresh off a month-long immersion in B's piano sonatas, which always leaves me with a renewed sense of awe and love for the man's music, I was ready to enjoy some orchestral music again. Last night I decided to return to the 4th symphony, in the hope that this time I might perceive what some say is there.

No such luck. For me, the 1st movement borders on the trite, and the others are just undistinguished. I would appreciate some discussion on this. Is this just a strange lacuna in my appreciation of the Master, or can this indeed be considered one of Beethoven's rare mediocrities?

[Chris]

The 4th is one of my absolute favorite pieces of music. I'm not sure what else to tell you...it certainly shouldn't be considered a "mediocrity." Maybe you should try a different recording?

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 10-25-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by cbarb:

No such luck. For me, the 1st movement borders on the trite, and the others are just undistinguished. I would appreciate some discussion on this. Is this just a strange lacuna in my appreciation of the Master, or can this indeed be considered one of Beethoven's rare mediocrities?

Mediocrity??!!!!!! This Symphony is a delight from beginning to end. What is trite about the wonderful dark opening, whose falling 3rds actually anticipate the famous C minor symphony motive? The Allegro vivace is pure joy and what about that development section which emulates that in the first movement of the Waldstien - a long drum roll with tiny flickers of sound that explode into the recap? The slow movement is absolutely beautiful with wonderful scoring. The third is superb with all sorts of rhythmic tricks and harmonic surprises. The 4th is one of the most exhuberant movements he ever wrote rounded off with that Haydnesque trick of slowing the pace and then suddenly dashing off the last few fars at full speed. The work as a whole is full of too many subtleties in rhythm, harmony, orchestral colour to mention. Definitely not a mediocre work, but a worthy companion to the other Symphonies.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by cbarb:
or can this indeed be considered one of Beethoven's rare mediocrities?

It is not B. mediocrity... It must be the interpreters's mediocrity !!! The 4th is a real masterpiece from the beginning to the end for me.



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Claudie

[cbarb]

Good for you, Claudie!
That is certainly a powerful endorsement.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
It is not B. mediocrity... It must be the interpreters's mediocrity !!! The 4th is a real masterpiece from the beginning to the end for me.

Absolutely - I mentioned how subtle the piece is and here is just one example - the use of timpani just prior to the recapitulation is a stroke of genius with Beethoven taking advantage of the fact that the timpani are not enharmonic instruments - if tuned to play Bb, they cannot play A# , so while the strings are actually in B major, there is that Bb in the timpani which of course is the tonic note.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Absolutely - I mentioned how subtle the piece is and here is just one example - the use of timpani just prior to the recapitulation is a stroke of genius with Beethoven taking advantage of the fact that the timpani are not enharmonic instruments - if tuned to play Bb, they cannot play A# , so while the strings are actually in B major, there is that Bb in the timpani which of course is the tonic note.

Peter, were I still moderator I would have deleted the original post, I initiator of which I cannot believe is being taken seriously. Ooer...further deletion comming up..

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Peter, were I still moderator I would have deleted the original post, I initiator of which I cannot believe is being taken seriously. Ooer...further deletion comming up..

There is nothing wrong with the original post - only some of the rather hysterical reactions to it. Indeed the post is an excellent opportunity to discuss the merits of this great work - why should I delete a post that dares to question the calibre of a particular work? It would be more helpful to demolish the assertion that the 4th is a mediocre work through musical rather than personal onslaught!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-27-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There is nothing wrong with the original post - only some of the reactions to it. Indeed the post is an excellent opportunity to discuss the merits of this great work - why should I delete a post that dares to question the calibre of a particular work? It would be more helpful to demolish the assertion that the 4th is a mediocre work through musical rather than personal onslaught!

I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier remark.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

The 3rd movement often suffers from lame tempi, especially in the trio. As Beethoven brings in the trio twice, this is all the more vital. Strangely Beethoven marked this movement Menuetto, though it is clearly a Scherzo. Was this a Beethoven joke in itself, with the audience expecting a Haydn style minuet and instead getting this energetic piece with cross-rhythms and strange modulations which seem to mock the minuet?!!

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'Man know thyself'

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by cbarb:
Fresh off a month-long immersion in B's piano sonatas, which always leaves me with a renewed sense of awe and love for the man's music, I was ready to enjoy some orchestral music again. Last night I decided to return to the 4th symphony, in the hope that this time I might perceive what some say is there.

No such luck. For me, the 1st movement borders on the trite, and the others are just undistinguished. I would appreciate some discussion on this. Is this just a strange lacuna in my appreciation of the Master, or can this indeed be considered one of Beethoven's rare mediocrities?

After having read this post several days ago, I listened to the 4th and pondered on this. I believe that perhaps your reaction to the 4th is based on the fact that it IS a different work from its companions. In all the other symphonies, there are readily memorable melodies\motives that easily push themselves into our heads and make us want to hum them to ourselves over and over again. In the 4th, however, there are no such melodies\motives, just a sustained, emotionally happy experience in which there is simply nothing memorable except for the experience. Perhaps this truly is the worst Beethoven Symphony (understanding, though, that all beethoven symphonies are excellent, some are simply more excellent that others). I await everyone's comments.

Bob


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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[Chris]

I have to disagree, Bob. The primary theme of the first movement (the climax after the introduction) is very hummable. In fact it was stuck in my head for days after I heard it for the first time. There are several other parts in the symphony that had the same effect on me.

As for the "worst" Beethoven symphony - there is simply no way it is the fourth. I say it is the second, maybe the first.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
In the 4th, however, there are no such melodies\motives, just a sustained, emotionally happy experience in which there is simply nothing memorable except for the experience. Perhaps this truly is the worst Beethoven Symphony (understanding, though, that all beethoven symphonies are excellent, some are simply more excellent that others). I await everyone's comments.

Bob

What about the glorious melodies in the slow movement? I understand though when it comes to putting these great Symphonies in order of preference, people are bound to disagree. For me this work is definitely an advancement on the 1st and 2nd, much as I love both of those.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
In the 4th, however, there are no such melodies\motives....in which there is simply nothing memorable except for the experience.
Bob

Are you sure your not confusing Beethoven's 4th with Bob's 4th?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

I would say the 4th is one of my favourties!
It's very thematic through and through. I also agree it's hummable. I would put it right on up there close to 2 or 3 by way of order.