Tonality.

[Enrique]

Beethoven said something in relation to it. Like "A tonality is not changeable with another tonality" or "Each tonality has a character of its own". In the days of Bach tonality was not that important. A piece could be transposed from F to G and nobody thought it would change the character of the music. Today we all view tonality as Beethoven did. Nobody even questions it. E major is heroic and C major is bright. Yes, the thing is subjective. What was heroic to Beethoven was not so perhaps to Brahms. But, even subjectively, is there really a difference among E major and C major? The science of psychoacoustics must have something to say, but I never heard or read a scientific explanation about this matter. Pretty sure the thing must have been put to a test in the laboratory, but the results must be known only to scholars.

Let's simplify and stick ourselves to the piano for the moment. How can the Moonlight sonata be different if played in C minor? Well, at least in two very sensible ways. First, the whole piece has shifted down one semitone. It now sounds move grave, more heavy, the low frequency energy has augmented and some high frecuency content has been lost. Secondly, not all keys in the keyboard have the same timbre. If we took C_3 and electronically shift its frequency spectrum up one octave, we would not have C_2. Each key has a characteristic timbre, in the same way that the quality of sound in the open A string is different from that of the G string in a violin, apart from the difference in pitch. So, by playing Moonlight in C minor, we effectively change its character.

The question is: in what degree can the human ear perceive it? Lets now move on to another "instrument". The symphonic orchestra playing a given composition, which we consider fix, in several tonalities. By the same argument as in the piano case, the first chord in the sixth measure will be changed in timbre if we play it one semitone lower. Plus, assuming there is room for the displacement in the bass sections of the orchestra, there will be a shift in frecuency our ear can perceive. This second effect I negate any consequence, except for occasional transposing an octave higher say, an E in the double basses or a C or B flat in the flute. As to the former, the difference in timbre, in that chord, when played at two different pitches, is now more subtle and complex, compared to the piano. Does it ease perception of the difference or makes it more difficult? I do not know. Suppose it's even harder than in the case of the piano. Then we have that absolute perception of tonality, as the thing everybody agrees on, is at least debatable.

[Peter]

Then there is the problem of 'pitch inflation' - we are around a semitone higher than the late 18th century. There was even greater variation the further back you go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert...e-19th_century

[Symphony7]

I don't have perfect pitch, so if I heard a piece that I know, and didn't know it was in a different key from what it was intended to be in, I doubt I'd notice.

[Peter]

I don't have perfect pitch, so if I heard a piece that I know, and didn't know it was in a different key from what it was intended to be in, I doubt I'd notice.

You might - think of it as different shades, colours - possibly you would pick up on the difference without knowing why!

[Symphony7]

You might - think of it as different shades, colours - possibly you would pick up on the difference without knowing why!

Maybe.

On the rare occasions I've had to practise singing, I'd give myself the first few notes, and then sing on. At the end I'd see if I'm still in the right key, but gravity always seems to drag me down a tone or two! Surely that wouldn't happen if I was sensitive to the right key.

[Enrique]

I think it's almost impossible to have a sense of tonality with monophonic instruments such as the human voice. A symphonic orchestra is quite another thing. Anyways, the fact that even trained singers will shift down a few commas after some time makes a good point against absolute perception of tonality.

[Sorrano]

Of course, there are those exceptions, people who have perfect pitch. But does the timbre change with the tonality? I would say that it does because some tonalities favor the strongest register of some instruments and others do not. That will affect very much the timbre.

[Michael]

I don't know if this adds anything to the above discussion, but I once had a conversation with a well-known organist, Gerard Gillen, back in the 70s, when we had an annual Bach Festival in Killarney.
I am relying on my memory here, but his wife was also a musician and she had "perfect pitch". He seemed to be a bit envious of this and he added "but she can't write a note of harmony." (Which may have been incorrect or exaggeration.)
Memory could be playing tricks, but it seemed to me at the time to bear out the old saying that "you can't have everything".
Unless, of course, you are J S Bach.




.

[Chaszz]

There is also the issue of instruments where the natural sound of the body of the instrument is more resonant than the stopped sound. As a jazz, rock and blues guitarist who plays only acoustic guitar, there is no question for me that certain keys sound better, especially E, G and A. The two most important chords in traditional Western harmony, the tonic and the dominant, sound much better in these keys than any other. E major and G major in the first and third fret positions respectively are the most beautiful chords on the acoustic guitar because of their open strings. To what extent this is true of other instruments like those in the orchestra I don't know exactly, but there is testimony that the open, unvalved notes in the horns were preferred by some composers. Here is a rather long and technical piece on why Brahms preferred an unvalved horn for his horn trio, where skimming rather than reading will give some impression of the reasons.

http://www.osmun.com/reference/brahms/Chapter%203.html

Here is some text from Wikipedia that praises open unstopped violin string sound:

"A special timbre results from playing a note without touching its string with a finger, thus sounding the lowest note on that string. Such a note is said to be played on an open string. Open string notes (G, D, A, E) have a very distinct sound resulting from absence of the damping action of a finger, and from the fact that vibrato (see below) is produced differently than on fingered notes. Other than low G (which can be played in no other way), open strings are sometimes selected for special effects...."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_the_violin)

I wonder if this is true of woodwinds also.

So there are many reasons why a composer might choose a key which enables open unstopped notes on certain instruments, or choirs of instruments. Since these keys vary from one instrument to another, e.g., with the natural scales of horns being different from the natural scales of strings, as produced by the harmonic resonance of the physical body of the instrument, and the physical strings, all kinds of different effects would be made possible depending on the key.

C is the most simple key, with no sharps or flats in it. The "concert" key instruments, such as the violin and piano, are said to be C instruments. A horn such as the trumpet is said to be a B flat instrument because its C scale is the B flat scale of the piano. So a piece which utilized the natural body of the trumpet with less valved and more open notes in it would be in concert B flat. I think this is correct, but am not sure. (?)

[Enrique]

Of course, there are those exceptions, people who have perfect pitch. But does the timbre change with the tonality? I would say that it does because some tonalities favor the strongest register of some instruments and others do not. That will affect very much the timbre.

Timbre definitely changes with tonality. Peter spoke of tonalities having shade and color. The only property of sound that can be associated with color or shade is timbre. So, C major can be differentiated from E major not only because C is a different pitch than E but, arguably because of differences in timbre. The purpose of my post was to discuss in what extent this timbre can be perceived by us, that is to what extent C major has a shade and color of its own. Of course, these differences will more likely be perceived in an orchestra than in a flute playing alone. Beethoven claimed that the difference can in fact be perceived. A good reason why, in the piano for instance, a C has a different sound than E is that a piano has certain natural resonant frequencies, and these are more easily excited by the C than by the E or vice versa. Anyways, if we play middle C in a piano and middle E and watch these notes in an oscilloscope, we would see that the waveforms are different, though I don't know if so different that the ear can notice it.

[Sorrano]

When I was studying music I always had a difficulty with the ear training, mostly because I could recognize the pitches on the piano. F, for example, is a sharper sound and very distinct to my ears. D is more mellow to me; it has a softer sound. I do think that the ear can pick up the differences in timbre but it may take some work to learn how to do it. Often I can pick out E-Flat chords in an orchestral piece because it has a particular sound to it, but then some of that depends on how the chord is spaced in the orchestra, and possibly whether it is inverted or in root position.

[Symphony7]

Who decided what letter would be allocated to each note?

I've often wondered why the note we call C isn't called A instead. It would seem sensible to start with the sharp-less and flat-less key, than with the one with three sharps!

[Chris]

Who decided what letter would be allocated to each note?

I've often wondered why the note we call C isn't called A instead. It would seem sensible to start with the sharp-less and flat-less key, than with the one with three sharps!

The notes only "start" with C in major keys. And the notes were named with letters long before major keys were used, so it's something of a historical accident.

[Sorrano]

Isn't A used for tuning in the orchestra? (B-Flat, as I recall, was what we used to tune instruments in a concert band.) I wonder, then, if that is where the key A got its designation, if its the underlying foundational tone for tuning.

[Symphony7]

The notes only "start" with C in major keys. And the notes were named with letters long before major keys were used, so it's something of a historical accident.

Maybe that explains A minor being C major's relative.