Beethoven and Shakespeare

[stout]

I am asking something to all members:

In reading something recently about Beethoven he seemed to have a love for shakespeare. Infact at times I read he known to have qouted the great poet since they both apparently had a love for puns. Is this true?
I would think so but would not want to be made a fool before going off and telling someone else about it. I know he wrote pieces of music(Coriolian Overture, example 1)for his work. Which is really the only basis I go on. Any reply is appreciated.

Regards
C.

[Peter]

Beethoven was familiar with Shakespeare through August Von Schlegel's translation as his English was never up to much! Both his work on the planned opera Macbeth, and the incidental music for Coriolan were based on an adaptation of Shakespeare's plays by Heinrich Collin.
I think the remark 'I regard him [Zmeskall] and S[chuppanzigh] merely as instruments on which to play when I feel inclined' is perhaps a reference to Hamlet. I'm not aware off hand of many direct Shakespeare quotes. Beethoven certainly loved puns, and there are examples of this with his vocal canons - Kuhl, nicht lau WoO191 (cool, not lukewarm) written for the composer Kuhlau.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by stout:

I would think so but would not want to be made a fool before going off and telling someone else about it. I know he wrote pieces of music(Coriolian Overture, example 1)for his work. Which is really the only basis I go on. Any reply is appreciated.

Regards
C.

Don't worry, you won't make a fool of yourself. B projected an opera based on Macbeth that typically came to nothing. He sketched some music for it which subsequently was adapted for the adagio of op70/1.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-03-2001).]

[PDG]

Another Shakespeare/Beethoven example which comes to mind is that LvB admitted to the violinist, Carl Amenda that he was thinking of the burial vault scene in Romeo and Juliet while composing the slow movement of the Quartet, Op.18, no.1.

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Another Shakespeare/Beethoven example which comes to mind is that LvB admitted to the violinist, Carl Amenda that he was thinking of the burial vault scene in Romeo and Juliet while composing the slow movement of the Quartet, Op.18, no.1.

Yes this story which is borne out in the sketches has credence unlike Schindler's claims regarding Op.31 no.2 'The Tempest'. Given Beethoven's love of Shakespeare it is surprising that he wasn't drawn to one of Shakespeare's plays for an opera (aside from the discarded 'Macbeth'). Could it be that the great trajedies, Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet were simply too tragic for B who tends to like a happy conclusion? The Historical dramas would probably have been of little interest to a Viennese audience and perhaps the comedies were too frivolous for B's tastes?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-04-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Could it be that the great trajedies, Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet were simply too tragic for B who tends to like a happy conclusion? The Historical dramas would probably have been of little interest to a Viennese audience and perhaps the comedies were too frivolous for B's tastes?

Or it could have been that whatever texts were available were too lame (especially when they have to be compared with an original by the likes of Shakespear) to stimulate his interest?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

I don't like Beethoven and Shakespeare being paired (which they tend to be), when great artists are being discussed. Shakespeare - who does absolutely nothing for me - was, at best, a talented tale-spinner. There's not even any definite evidence that he ever existed. Those who say that they can be touched by a performance of Shakespeare in the same way that others are touched by a performance of Beethoven are truly missing the point.

Beethoven's audience communication is on an all together different plane. And one cannot speak of Shakespeare's great heart.

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I don't like Beethoven and Shakespeare being paired (which they tend to be), when great artists are being discussed. Shakespeare - who does absolutely nothing for me - was, at best, a talented tale-spinner. There's not even any definite evidence that he ever existed. Those who say that they can be touched by a performance of Shakespeare in the same way that others are touched by a performance of Beethoven are truly missing the point.

Beethoven's audience communication is on an all together different plane. And one cannot speak of Shakespeare's great heart.

Well this is hardly the place to debate the merits of Shakespeare. I think you are wrong in your assertion that there is no evidence to suggest he ever existed - the plays are proof enough, unless you subscribe to the rather dubious Baconian theory. I am far from an expert regarding Shakespeare who it seems to me reveals the superiority of music over the written word, in that there is a definite language problem with Mr.S - even for English speaking people - we simply don't talk like that anymore!! With music, the language you speak is of no importance (though knowing some Italian and German is useful!). I think the two men are often compared because of the wide range of human experience that their art encompasses - to dismiss S as no better than a tale spinner misses the deep psychology and the universality of human experience that his works reveal.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

A talented tale-spinner, Peter, a talented tale-spinner. But then so was my Grandad. And my Grandad definitely existed! I could relate to his stories because they were based on real human experience, witnessed first-hand, and some of them have stood me in good stead to this day.

How can anyone claim to be overwhelmed by Shakespeare? How can anyone claim to be not overwhelmed by Beethoven? There is more sheer humanity in one Beethoven composition than all of Shakespeare.

My Grandad was not a composer.

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
A talented tale-spinner, Peter, a talented tale-spinner. But then so was my Grandad. And my Grandad definitely existed! I could relate to his stories because they were based on real human experience, witnessed first-hand, and some of them have stood me in good stead to this day.

How can anyone claim to be overwhelmed by Shakespeare? How can anyone claim to be not overwhelmed by Beethoven? There is more sheer humanity in one Beethoven composition than all of Shakespeare.

My Grandad was not a composer.

Isn't comparing Beethoven to Shakespeare somewhat like comparing apples and oranges? They are two completely different genres. Both have beautiful qualities in their own right.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Joy:
Isn't comparing Beethoven to Shakespeare somewhat like comparing apples and oranges? They are two completely different genres. Both have beautiful qualities in their own right.

Of course, you're right, Joy. My point was that when people pair off the great minds of history, Beethoven and Shakespeare could be mistaken for identical twins! You know, Galileo and Copernicus. Freud and Jung. Newton and Einstein. Michelangelo and Van Gogh. And so on. I was referring to the human experience of being exposed to the arts of the two men concerned. When I leave a Beethoven concert, I feel uplifted, awed, inspired, humbled. I feel that if anyone says this after seeing a Shakespeare play, they are deluding themselves. Or simply missing the point about Beethoven.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
Of course, you're right, Joy. My point was that when people pair off the great minds of history, Beethoven and Shakespeare could be mistaken for identical twins! You know, Galileo and Copernicus. Freud and Jung. Newton and Einstein. Michelangelo and Van Gogh.

Perhaps a better pairing, if you want to do that, would be pair B with Goethe. They had much more in common as far as human experiences of the day goes.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Perhaps a better pairing, if you want to do that, would be pair B with Goethe. They had much more in common as far as human experiences of the day goes.

Exactly. Or Beethoven and Des. :

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
Exactly. Or Beethoven and Des. :

Now that would really be a pair!!