Beethoven's 5th the finest 'romantic' concerto?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I'm not talking about pianofortes or fortepianos or modern v's authentic here at all - simply the notes written down on the manuscript ! So hopefully you do have more sympathy with my view - I actually have more with yours re. the fortepiano argument having been listening to the Mozart Concertos with your comments in mind .I don't agree that pianisitically there is no advance after Beethoven or as you say the opposite.
Yes Beethoven's piano music is more technically advanced than Mozart's, but so is Liszt's more than Beethoven, and Bartok more than Liszt - it doesn't make it better though. Your argument for Fortepianos is also my defence, because the stylistic advances you refer to in Beethoven are in direct relation to the advances in the instrument itself - Mozart cannot be blamed for not writing for an instrument that did not exist !

I chose my words with care in my last post - I said B was 'stylistically' superior, as opposed to 'technically' or whatever. With this in mind I stand by my words - Beethoven wrote the finest quality piano music in the largest quantity. If I thought otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Regarding the fortepiano, B used virtually the same 5 octave instrument as M for all of his early period compositions. It wasn't until after 1800 that the instrument started to develop. I think (but could be wrong) they can all be played up until the Waldstein (by which time B was now influenced by the new extended keyboards as possessed by his Erard piano) using such instruments. Think about the volume of quality music this entails (more if one includes the chamber music). I don't think Rachmanillow or Mozart could come up with such good musical invention used in such disciplined and self critical a manner, regardless of how many notes are on paper or how difficult they are to play.

I just believe B was more of a natural piano writer than M, perhaps just because he was the product of a marginally later age and nothing more (and yes, assisted somewhat via M himself), but I stand by these words. If others differ I can live with it.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

I agree with much of what you say - When it comes to the piano, yes Beethoven is overall a superior and more consistent composer than Mozart - however it does not alter the fact that there are out of the 19 odd Sonatas ,5 that are great works, and out of the 27 Concertos around 12.
Mozart had been brought up with the Harpsichord, but you have to remember that he was probably one of the first great composers to actually write for the piano - and his concertos certainly provided a model for Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree with much of what you say - When it comes to the piano, yes Beethoven is overall a superior and more consistent composer than Mozart - however it does not alter the fact that there are out of the 19 odd Sonatas ,5 that are great works, and out of the 27 Concertos around 12.
Mozart had been brought up with the Harpsichord, but you have to remember that he was probably one of the first great composers to actually write for the piano - and his concertos certainly provided a model for Beethoven.

All fair enough. I am not trying to deny M his dues, but I was searching for an absolute position, one whereby when all things are considered a 'winner' is selected, by whom all others are thus to be judged. For some the task is less complex than for others, but B himself partook of such games, and why not.

Rod



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[BobLombard]

I think your comparisons between Mozart and Beethoven are the result of too much education. Irregardless of how much Beethoven respected Mozart and was influenced by him, even borrowed from him, Beethoven's piano sonatas don't *sound* like Mozart's. Even B's 1st two piano concertos don't sound like anything composed by Mozart. The closest to 'similarity' I can think of is Mozart's K.475 fantasia to early Beethoven. What else is there (not on paper, but in the ear)?

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AKA "The Hill Troll"

[Peter]

I don't know what you mean by too much education - surely you can only form an opinion if you are familiar with the two composers' works - as you obviously are ! and I agree with you, they don't sound anything like each other - but that was not my point. I am simply saying that Beethoven (though in my opinion, the greatest composer of all) was not the only composer to write 'Great ' works - I simply do not see it as a competition.

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'Man know thyself'

[BobLombard]

By 'too much education' I mean comparing scores. An accomplished reader of multi-staff music notation (which I am not) can doubtless see similar patterns. Maybe that's where the Handel relationship comes in too? Although I just remembered that, in the 3rd mvt of Op. 132, B goes Baroque so obviously that even I notice.

On the 'sounds like' matter, Mozart's K.397 fantasia is the one I actually was thinking of. I first heard it unidentified, and thought it was a Beethoven work, maybe a WoO.

[Chris]

Hm. I can see where you might get that idea, actually.

[Peter]

Originally posted by BobLombard:
Although I just remembered that, in the 3rd mvt of Op. 132, B goes Baroque so obviously that even I notice.

I'd say B goes beyond the Baroque even in this movement - back to Palestrina with its modal qualities.

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'Man know thyself'