Beethoven, publishers and opus numbers.

[Enrique]

I know the opus numbers in Beethoven's catalog were mostly assigned by he himself. In fact, I do not precisely know it, so this is a question. When posterity tried to make a catalog of his works, they used WoO numbers for those works without opus number (or unpublished works?).

In a book about the nine symphonies I read: "However the maestro, sometimes, in order to satisfy impending exigences from editors, or in the urgent necessity of procuring himself resources, published, ciphered as "opus", much later than they had been composed, some of those essays" (free translation). So he really numerated his works!? How great the conscience of being an artist must have been already by this time.

Another question, more concrete, and the one that motivated this post, is "did Beethoven gave the famous three piano trios the op. number 1?". If so, this was a declaration!

[Chris]

Another question, more concrete, and the one that motivated this post, is "did Beethoven gave the famous three piano trios the op. number 1?". If so, this was a declaration!

Yes, he did, and he had a disagreement about it with his teacher, Haydn. A declaration indeed!

[Enrique]

I know Haydn pointed to no 3 with some mistrust, it was too somber for him. But the disagreement was about them publishing as op.1?

[Chris]

I know Haydn pointed to no 3 with some mistrust, it was too somber for him. But the disagreement was about them publishing as op.1?

Haydn advised him not to include No. 3 in the Op. 1 publication, on the grounds that it would be poorly received because it was too challenging a work to hear.

[Enrique]

OK. So, from when does the practice of assigning op. numbers, i.e., the composer doing it, date in Germany/Austria.

[Chris]

It dates back to the 17th century, I believe, but of course its usage was not consistent.

[Enrique]

I'm sure it must have risen in Germany. Well, thank you for your nice posts.

[Peter]

Yes, he did, and he had a disagreement about it with his teacher, Haydn. A declaration indeed!

Yes but I'm not convinced it was as major a thing as the historians and anecdotes like to tell us - I can't believe the 'jealousy story'. I'm sure Haydn advised Beethoven purely from a practical point of view, Beethoven obviously disagreed but only I think with Haydn's judgement rather than motive. After all what motive could Haydn have had? He simply wasn't a jealous man and was actually pretty humble.

[Chris]

Yes but I'm not convinced it was as major a thing as the historians and anecdotes like to tell us - I can't believe the 'jealousy story'. I'm sure Haydn advised Beethoven purely from a practical point of view, Beethoven obviously disagreed but only I think with Haydn's judgement rather than motive. After all what motive could Haydn have had? He simply wasn't a jealous man and was actually pretty humble.

I agree. I'm sure Haydn was not jealous, and it's hard to believe Beethoven would think so. Though it seems possible he might have said so in a moment of anger, without really meaning it.

[Enrique]

Do you know a biographer (biography writer) called Emil Ludwig? I've just found, at home, a book of his, by name Beethoven.

[Roehre]

I'm sure it must have risen in Germany. Well, thank you for your nice posts.

I have to disappoint you, I'm afraid Enrique. Viadana's Motecta festorum has got an opus number (10), published in Venice 1597. A composer with the name Marini published 22 opus numbers in Venice between 1617 and 1655.

It was done by Vivaldi and other Italian masters, publishing in diverse places like Amsterdam and Venice, but Schütz used them too (though the latter's numbering is partly a posthumous one).

[Roehre]

Do you know a biographer (biography writer) called Emil Ludwig? I've just found, at home, a book of his, by name Beethoven.

A 1945 published biography, originally in German, not based on own research but completely on secondary literature.

[Enrique]

A 1945 published biography, originally in German, not based on own research but completely on secondary literature.

Yes, I remember it was more like a novel than a true biography. Unfortunately, it's difficult nowadays to get biographies that do not look like novels.

[Enrique]

I have to disappoint you, I'm afraid Enrique. Viadana's Motecta festorum has got an opus number (10), published in Venice 1597. A composer with the name Marini published 22 opus numbers in Venice between 1617 and 1655.

It was done by Vivaldi and other Italian masters, publishing in diverse places like Amsterdam and Venice, but Schütz used them too (though the latter's numbering is partly a posthumous one).

Well, Roehre, Venice was part of the Holy Roman Empire by those days. And if not, it was very close to it. Amsterdam and Holland in general was plagued by prints!

EDIT: So Vivaldi is the precursor of the numbering system! I'd have never suspected it.

[Sorrano]

Well, Roehre, Venice was part of the Holy Roman Empire by those days. And if not, it was very close to it. Amsterdam and Holland in general was plagued by prints!

EDIT: So Vivaldi is the precursor of the numbering system! I'd have never suspect it.

I believe that was Viadana, not Vivaldi. He predates Vivaldi.