Op. 106, Sentimento = Sentiment?

[euphony131]

I want to be sure of the mvt. name for that legendary Adagio from the Hammerklavier sonata. The mvt is entitled: "Adagio sostenuto, appasionato e con molto sentimento."

Ok, so that means "Slow sustained, impassioned and with much..." What? I assume "sentiment." But was not sure, since the word, "sentimento" does not appear on my online music dictionary and typing it into an Italian-English dictionary produces nothing. Huh?

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
I want to be sure of the mvt. name for that legendary Adagio from the Hammerklavier sonata. The mvt is entitled: "Adagio sostenuto, appasionato e con molto sentimento."

Ok, so that means "Slow sustained, impassioned and with much..." What? I assume "sentiment." But was not sure, since the word, "sentimento" does not appear on my online music dictionary and typing it into an Italian-English dictionary produces nothing. Huh?

The qualifications after 'adagio sostenuto' are important as they indicate that the piece is rather more dynamic (impassioned) than is often performed (ie ultra largo throughout!). I have always taken molto sentimento to mean simply with much sentiment, but this is not the slimey sentiment of later musical generations. I suggest you think of it today as 'impassioned and heartfelt'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

The correct tranlation for "sentimento" is "feeling". (I am practising a perfect italian... not like my english !)

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Claudie

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
The correct tranlation for "sentimento" is "feeling"

Thanks Claudie. BTW, do you like that adagio on the longer or shorter side? What about the rest of you? I have Kempff playing it at 16:31.

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Thanks Claudie. BTW, do you like that adagio on the longer or shorter side? What about the rest of you? I have Kempff playing it at 16:31.

For me, you could easily knock a minute off that time. But I've heard versions much longer, around 20 minutes. But at this tempo it is clear the music is being stretched way beyond what the notes can accomodate comfortably. A shorter time makes the sonata as a whole a more homogenous unit.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
For me, you could easily knock a minute off that time. But I've heard versions much longer, around 20 minutes. But at this tempo it is clear the music is being stretched way beyond what the notes can accomodate comfortably. A shorter time makes the sonata as a whole a more homogenous unit.

I agree - Adagio is a much abused term and is often interpeted as lento. I was always taught that Adagio meant stately and to imagine the Queen walking in a procession!

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'Man know thyself'

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree - Adagio is a much abused term and is often interpeted as lento.

Peter,

Ok, on that note (no pun intended), what would be your fave version of the Adagio? How slow? Or should I say how fast? 14 minutes flat? And performed by whom? Let me know Pete. I'd be curious to hear it played faster. Wondering how it will effect the music.

[NickB]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Peter,

...14 minutes flat? And performed by whom?

I hate to sound like a scratched record (or CD) in recommending him, but the Jando recording on Naxos clocks in at just over 14:00. It is quite budget-priced and decent.
http://web02.hnh.com/scripts/newrele..._code=8.550234

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by Rod:
For me, you could easily knock a minute off that time. A shorter time makes the sonata as a whole a more homogenous unit.

Exactly what I think !



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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Peter,

Ok, on that note (no pun intended), what would be your fave version of the Adagio? How slow? Or should I say how fast? 14 minutes flat? And performed by whom? Let me know Pete. I'd be curious to hear it played faster. Wondering how it will effect the music.

I have a recording by Brendel that takes it at over 19 mins which is way too slow. I have heard it performed quicker than this and the effect makes for a more cohesive whole. You should be asking how does playing the music too slow effect it and the answer is it destroys the momentum and turns what is one of Beethoven's supreme slow movements into a bore. I can't give you a precise timing to the second, but anything much over 16 mins is starting to drag.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-26-2001).]

[Joy]

I agree anything over 16 min.is dragging. I have a recording by Bernard Roberts which is 17.58 and this is too slow as well. You could still shave 1 or even 2 min. off that for me. I think the piece would show more consistency as a whole.

[Chris]

I realize that I am in the vast minority here...but I rather like the 19+ minute Brendel version. I have never felt that its slower tempo makes it "drag." On the other hand, I don't really feel that a swifter tempo makes it seem rushed, though, so...I don't know. I guess this movement can work several ways for me.

[euphony131]

Having considered all the input I've elected to purchase (someday soon) the Naxos Jando version with the Adagio played at 14:11. Whoa! Talk about differences! I also noticed that Jando plays the Allegro, on the other hand, at 11:19, while my Kempff version goes at a 8:51 clip. I have to assume Kempff is not playing the repeats. What do you folks know about the playing of repeats for the Hammer? Did Beethoven stipulate it as an option?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have a recording by Brendel that takes it at over 19 mins which is way too slow. I have heard it performed quicker than this and the effect makes for a more cohesive whole. You should be asking how does playing the music too slow effect it and the answer is it destroys the momentum and turns what is one of Beethoven's supreme slow movements into a bore. I can't give you a precise timing to the second, but anything much over 16 mins is starting to drag.

My recording by Badura-Skoda playing a Graf lasts circa 16.45 mins. Too slow, though the other movements are excellent. It is not typical Beethoven to have a movement that is a formless continuation of sustained notes, when one imagines the piece performed quicker and passages re-emphasised, then structures and themes appear where before they did not exist. Over time I think the whole concept of this movement has been lost.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
I have to assume Kempff is not playing the repeats. What do you folks know about the playing of repeats for the Hammer? Did Beethoven stipulate it as an option?

The playing of repeats in Beethoven is not a subject for deliberation - they must always be played in every circumstance. The opening allegro should by default be played under 10 minutes, I wouldn't even consider a recording that lasts any longer.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin