Originally posted by Michael
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What Pop music owes to Classical
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'Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Michael View PostOne of them being the ability to write a good tune. Many "pop" composers (especially in the 1960's) would put a lot of modern "serious" composers to shame.
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Originally posted by PDG View PostYes, and of course there are also the 'in-between' composers (neither classical nor pop but incorporating a bit of both) whose melodies continue to astound. I think of Jerome Kern, Frederick Loewe and especially Richard Rodgers. Listen again to a verse of Rodgers' Edelweiss. That leap from the second to the third note shows - to use that expression again - genius.
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Originally posted by Michael View PostTotally. Any of these composers would put the Schoenbergs and the Birtwistles to shame.
It is significant that not one single tune of Kern, Loewe or Rodgers has either symphonic potential or is used as theme for a variation set by composers like Walton, Schnittke, Arnold, Hugh Wood (as Mozart and Beethoven did with the tune-smiths of their times). Wood e.g. used Burwell/Parish's "Sweet Lorraine" for a variation-mvt in his pianoconcerto op.31 from 1991.
They are nice to hear and certainly enjoyable, but that is not what "classical" composition is about. These tunes are impossible to develop, inert entities.
Before you start pointing to e.g. Mozart for the tunes: his music as well as Beethoven's was according to many critics of their days tuneless and extravagantly difficult to comprehend.
As far as Schönberg is concerned: the scherzo of his 2nd string quartet -the one in which he leaves tonality- is a perfectly singable and real quasi-viennese tune, one of many examples to be found in his output (including the dodecaphonic works).
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I was merely highlighting one area in which much of today's music is lacking. Obviously, melody in "serious" music is not an end in itself - but it is the soul of music - and I do believe certain composers do not possess it in a remarkable degree.
I picked the names Birtwistle and Schoenberg at random to illustrate the huge gap between accessible music and the esoteric stuff which is deliberately aimed at a small (and by implication, superior) audience.
Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are much greater composers than the two named above, but they (even the Great Mogul) never lost sight of their public.
Granted, it took a while for the public to catch up but it was never their intention to aim their compositions at a niche audience.
.Last edited by Michael; 02-10-2013, 04:36 PM.
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Originally posted by Michael View Post....
Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are much greater composers than the two named above, but they (even the Great Mogul) never lost sight of their public.
....
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Originally posted by Roehre View PostThis only shows you haven't a clear idea what defines the difference between being a tune-smith and a composer.
It is significant that not one single tune of Kern, Loewe or Rodgers has either symphonic potential or is used as theme for a variation set by composers like Walton, Schnittke, Arnold, Hugh Wood (as Mozart and Beethoven did with the tune-smiths of their times). Wood e.g. used Burwell/Parish's "Sweet Lorraine" for a variation-mvt in his pianoconcerto op.31 from 1991.
They are nice to hear and certainly enjoyable, but that is not what "classical" composition is about. These tunes are impossible to develop, inert entities.
Before you start pointing to e.g. Mozart for the tunes: his music as well as Beethoven's was according to many critics of their days tuneless and extravagantly difficult to comprehend.
As far as Schönberg is concerned: the scherzo of his 2nd string quartet -the one in which he leaves tonality- is a perfectly singable and real quasi-viennese tune, one of many examples to be found in his output (including the dodecaphonic works).'Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Roehre View PostThis only shows you haven't a clear idea what defines the difference between being a tune-smith and a composer.
It is significant that not one single tune of Kern, Loewe or Rodgers has either symphonic potential or is used as theme for a variation set by composers like Walton, Schnittke, Arnold, Hugh Wood (as Mozart and Beethoven did with the tune-smiths of their times). Wood e.g. used Burwell/Parish's "Sweet Lorraine" for a variation-mvt in his pianoconcerto op.31 from 1991.
They are nice to hear and certainly enjoyable, but that is not what "classical" composition is about. These tunes are impossible to develop, inert entities.
The three composers I mentioned are certainly that and not mere "tunesmiths" - a rather derogatory term. You might apply it to Irving Berlin, for example, who had no classical training or adeptitude at the piano, but not at the men I named. There are others I could have roll-called such as Sigmund Romberg or Cole Porter, and of course Gershwin.
These are all C20th musical giants whose music is accessed and accessible by infinitely more people than the recent, lifeless, unwelcoming state of "classical" music. In fact, I question whether the term should even be applied any more.
I can give many examples of these named composers writing and conducting if not symphonically, then certainly orchestrally.
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Roehre, I believe you are correct. The classical way was not catchy or singular melodies. It was a different style then. I would imagine many classical musicians could write a simple tune. But, I do believe that the classical style was not about that and that the composers did not think like that about music.
Does anyone feel I am write about this?- I hope, or I could not live. - written by H.G. Wells
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Originally posted by Preston View PostRoehre, I believe you are correct. The classical way was not catchy or singular melodies. It was a different style then. I would imagine many classical musicians could write a simple tune. But, I do believe that the classical style was not about that and that the composers did not think like that about music.
Does anyone feel I am write about this?'Man know thyself'
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Re the above discussion, dig the first item on this concert programme for 2013, man! Fab! Gear, man!
http://www.calphil.org/concerts/walt...-concert-hall/
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