Charles Rosen 1927-2012

[Peter]

Well, it's interesting to be vindicated about Beethoven being at least in some aspects a Romantic, though not in the more formal musical sense. I previously threw in the towel after I read Rosen's book.

But it's true in the wider sense Beethoven not only participated in the Romantic currents of his time in the political, intellectual and emotional aspects: he epitomized those aspects. He WAS the actual embodiment of the solitary, brooding, Promethean world-changer that that generation, largely younger than him, fixated on. The ability of the individual to create his own fate and to unleash energies in society by doing so. And to right the wrongs against the middle and lower classes that had existed for centuries, breaking the shackles the aristocracies had bound society with since the beginning of the partnership between the church and the absolutist kings in the early middle ages. To repeat, Beethoven not only lived this, he symbolized it in his life, his struggle with and triumph over deafness, and his music, for great masses of people.

This is why the Romantic composers who departed from his purely musical concepts nonetheless idolized him throughout the century like a god. And they never did depart from, but explored further, his idea of music as intellectual and emotional personal testament. Though, for example, Mozart may have occasionally expressed similar tendencies and feelings in his music, they were byproducts but not the central theme as they were in Beethoven.

I'm not so sure Chaszz - what you portray is indeed a very Romantic image and one fostered by the Romantics themselves, but the reality was that Beethoven was not only very reliant on the aristocracy but also wished to be part of it himself. He used the 'Van' in his name to imply this and when it came to a possible spouse it was only within that circle that he looked and of course failed. His solitariness was due to this and his deafness. The lower classes you refer to, he actually had little respect for as can be seen by his dealings with his servants and although he much admired the English 'democratic' parliamentary system, the reality at that time would have been that he himself would not have been eligible to vote had he been British!

His 'Romanticism' lies I think in his love of nature, his direct relationship to God (rather than through religion), in his belief in the greatness of Art - his recognition of its supremacy over earthly things and its power to change things for the good.

[Sorrano]

His music often has a feel of Romanticism, even though strict structure and form are maintained. There is a sense of dynamic and emotional progression that gives his music vitality that simply does not exist with his predecessors. The music may, such as in the 3rd Symphony, have a sense of Romanticism through the ears, it still maintains a very Classical form in every aspect. There is a sense of purpose that goes beyond the abstraction of Haydn, Mozart, and their peers. Yet we see in the 8th Symphony, for example, the ultimate in pure abstract art. Beethoven pushes boundaries without breaking them.

[Peter]

His music often has a feel of Romanticism, even though strict structure and form are maintained. There is a sense of dynamic and emotional progression that gives his music vitality that simply does not exist with his predecessors. The music may, such as in the 3rd Symphony, have a sense of Romanticism through the ears, it still maintains a very Classical form in every aspect. There is a sense of purpose that goes beyond the abstraction of Haydn, Mozart, and their peers. Yet we see in the 8th Symphony, for example, the ultimate in pure abstract art. Beethoven pushes boundaries without breaking them.

Yes I agree Sorrano - the 3rd, 5th and 9th symphonies in particular have this heroic sense of Romanticism about them and of course they were very influential on Bruckner and Mahler who I think of as the true heirs of Beethoven rather than Brahms - but that's probably opened up a whole new debate!!

[Preston]

For a lot of the part, I think the form of Beethoven's music was highly relative to the Classical style, definitely more so than the style of the Romantics.

However, the feelings and emotions and general aura of his music definitely is more of the Romantics, to my ears.

Also, as for the poverty thing, Peter I am not so sure he wanted to be part of the nobility. I think the opposite based on what I have read. He railed against them, particularly in his later years. I remember reading a letter he wrote to a young girl named Emile - he wrote that he was tired of being around the rich "whose own poverty is their inner-selves".

I would probably say Beethoven was more of a Romantic then a Classicist.

[Peter]

For a lot of the part, I think the form of Beethoven's music was highly relative to the Classical style, definitely more so than the style of the Romantics.

However, the feelings and emotions and general aura of his music definitely is more of the Romantics, to my ears.

Also, as for the poverty thing, Peter I am not so sure he wanted to be part of the nobility. I think the opposite based on what I have read. He railed against them, particularly in his later years. I remember reading a letter he wrote to a young girl named Emile - he wrote that he was tired of being around the rich "whose own poverty is their inner-selves".

I would probably say Beethoven was more of a Romantic then a Classicist.

That letter was written to a young child who couldn't have been that poor herself as she had a governess! However you have a point in that Beethoven regarded art as supreme and the true artist greater than the nobility. It cannot be denied that Beethoven's romantic involvements were almost exclusively with women who belonged to the aristocracy and I think he obviously felt a grudge against a system that excluded him from marrying into it.

With regard to his music which is what I am really talking about when we speak of Classical or Romantic, there can be little doubt that the form and language he used was of the Classical style - this is not a matter of ideals or beliefs but one based on musical analysis.

[Preston]

It cannot be denied that Beethoven's romantic involvements were almost exclusively with women who belonged to the aristocracy and I think he obviously felt a grudge against a system that excluded him from marrying into it.

I think it is more open-minded to say that he may have felt a grudge. I say that because it is hard to know what one thinks. I know you have read much more on Beethoven than me, however does his utter hatred for the nobility in his later years not show that he was not fond of it, particularly in his later years. And then we all know the stories of barging through the upper-class and nobles. Things like that are the reason I like Beethoven, so when you say he liked the nobility it confuses me.

With regard to his music which is what I am really talking about when we speak of Classical or Romantic, there can be little doubt that the form and language he used was of the Classical style - this is not a matter of ideals or beliefs but one based on musical analysis.

I imagine that the analysis is accurate and that he probably did compose in the classical, well definitely more so than the Romantic. Though is it not possible that there are elements of both and while the classical style is more-so in his musical form, could the style not have just been Beethoven?

[Peter]

I think it is more open-minded to say that he may have felt a grudge. I say that because it is hard to know what one thinks. I know you have read much more on Beethoven than me, however does his utter hatred for the nobility in his later years not show that he was not fond of it, particularly in his later years. And then we all know the stories of barging through the upper-class and nobles. Things like that are the reason I like Beethoven, so when you say he liked the nobility it confuses me.

I imagine that the analysis is accurate and that he probably did compose in the classical, well definitely more so than the Romantic. Though is it not possible that there are elements of both and while the classical style is more-so in his musical form, could the style not have just been Beethoven?

I'm not sure where you get this 'utter hatred of the nobility from' - many of them were his friends! The Archduke Rudolph (brother of the Emperor) was also his pupil for many years. Yes of course there is obviously a style we can call Beethoven, Haydn or Mozart etc.. each of these composers has his unique voice that makes them recognisable, but they used the same 'classical' language - it's a bit like Shakespeare and Spencer who both use the same language of the 16th century as compared to Dickens or Byron who use that of the 19th century but each is unique.

[Chaszz]

This issue obviously has a lot of facets and a good deal of vitality to it still...On the technical side and in support of Beethoven's classicism, what hasn't been mentioned yet -- I'm a bit surprised Peter hasn't mentioned it -- is that the Romantics started breaking down the strict tonal rules of classicism, creating new relationships among chords and keys, for example going into the flat keys for their developments rather than the sharp keys as the Baroque and Classical composers had done. Rosen explores this in The Classical Style. This widening of tonality greatly irritated and bothered Beethoven. (It would lead later to the breaking of the tonal dam with Wagner's Tristan and even later to atonality in the 20th c., and it may even be the chief technical legacy of Romanticism.)

Re Beethoven's relation to the aristocracy, holding two contrary opinions at different occasions is common in human life, and he most probably had a love-hate relationship to it. To me Fidelio is significant, with its fervent support for revolution against the entrenched aristocracy. Also there is his early dedication of the Third Symphony to Napoleon, who at his accession to power promised a new dawn of republican democracy to Europe, only to then betray it with his egotism and addiction to more and more power.

As to form, Beethoven stayed with the Classical forms but expanded them to superhuman scale. I wonder what Mozart and Haydn would have thought of the Ninth symphony. Surely they would have considered it a sea change in music if they could absorb it at all. A striking parallel in art is Michelangelo, who took the harmonious classical forms of Renaissance art and expanded them to an emotionally charged scale that shattered the old ideal and all but created Baroque art. Technically, Michelangelo was not a Baroque artist, but in spirit he gave birth to the style.

[Quijote]

Please ignore my Posting #14 above, it was a flippant remark in light of your serious intent for this particular thread. My apologies.