Charles Rosen 1927-2012

[Chaszz]

Pianist, musicologist and cultural polymath Charles Rosen died recently. Some years ago Peter and I had a discussion here on whether Beethoven was a Romantic or Classical composer, and Peter settled matters definitively by sending me off to read Rosen's "The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven." Here is an appreciation from The New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...les-rosen.html

[Michael]

Sad news. A great musician and writer. I have seen his contributions to a number of television documentaries.

[Quijote]

Yes, sad to read about his passing. A great musicologist (i.e. one with high levels of musicianship, not some sort of 'Baah baah black sheep' type offering music appreciation).

[Peter]

Yes, sad to read about his passing. A great musicologist (i.e. one with high levels of musicianship, not some sort of 'Baah baah black sheep' type offering music appreciation).

Yes and one who could actually perform so far more insight into what he was talking about. Where are the Rosens and Robbins-Landons of today?

[Peter]

Pianist, musicologist and cultural polymath Charles Rosen died recently. Some years ago Peter and I had a discussion here on whether Beethoven was a Romantic or Classical composer, and Peter settled matters definitively by sending me off to read Rosen's "The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven." Here is an appreciation from The New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...les-rosen.html

Thanks for that Chaszz and good to know you still visit us from time to time - I didn't know you'd read the book, so used am I to being ignored! It makes rather dry reading but I think he makes a very good case from a technical point of view. I think now that you were also right in that Beethoven's way of looking at the world was more akin to that of the Romantic movement, but wasn't even Mozart thinking along those lines?

[Quijote]

Yes and one who could actually perform so far more insight into what he was talking about. Where are the Rosens and Robbins-Landons of today?

Well, from the criteria you give, I would dare say Boulez.

[Peter]

Well, from the criteria you give, I would dare say Boulez.

I wasn't aware I'd given any criteria, but if you want it I'd start with charisma which H.C had in bucket loads.

[Quijote]

Boulez has his charms!

[Chris]

RIP

I have enjoyed both his performances and writings, and surely will continue to do so!

[PDG]

I think now that you were also right in that Beethoven's way of looking at the world was more akin to that of the Romantic movement, but wasn't even Mozart thinking along those lines?

I too made the same assertion ten or more years ago about Beethoven's "placing" along the musical 'timeline', but was shot down in flames by both you and Rod at the time. I'm not saying you were wrong (or right), just that a great creative genius should not be pigeon-holed for convenience...

Oh, and yes, good to hear from you again, Chaszz...

[Peter]

I too made the same assertion ten or more years ago about Beethoven's "placing" along the musical 'timeline', but was shot down in flames by both you and Rod at the time. I'm not saying you were wrong (or right), just that a great creative genius should not be pigeon-holed for convenience...

Sounds a bit like sour grapes and at xmas too - I prefer mine ripe!

Beethoven's 'Romanticism' has its roots in philosophy, religion, literature and politics and in this he was in tune with the emerging Romantic movement. However, Rosen demonstrates that Beethoven's use of form and tonality was very much 'Classical' (C.1750-1827) and this was the point I was making to counter the assertions being made that Beethoven was definitely a 'Romantic' composer. There is nothing wrong in using these terms (provided they are understood properly) because they are useful in defining an approach to tonality and form (the stylistic use of musical language) that was common to the eras they represent.

[Chaszz]

Sounds a bit like sour grapes and at xmas too - I prefer mine ripe!

Beethoven's 'Romanticism' has its roots in philosophy, religion, literature and politics and in this he was in tune with the emerging Romantic movement. However, Rosen demonstrates that Beethoven's use of form and tonality was very much 'Classical' (C.1750-1827) and this was the point I was making to counter the assertions being made that Beethoven was definitely a 'Romantic' composer. There is nothing wrong in using these terms (provided they are understood properly) because they are useful in defining an approach to tonality and form (the stylistic use of musical language) that was common to the eras they represent.

I'll have to get re-involved in this discussion when I have more time, it's now Christmas morning and I must find a little boy to run downtown and buy me a goose.

[Quijote]

Hello Chaszz, did you get your goose? I read an article recently (GB press) that points to a renaissance in this bird. Need a good oven (or at least a large one), and the results are marvellous. Not something I'd eat too often, though!

[Quijote]

But to return to the argument (an old one on this forum, it seems), I have of course read my Rosen (though not the PDG-Peter-Chassz-Rod debate). I would say (after long reflection lasting approx 4'33") that LvB was mainly in the Classical camp with feet certainly in the Romantic direction once he had finished his supper circa 17h00, October 13th 1814, but his late works are beyond even this facile categorization.

[Chaszz]

Well, it's interesting to be vindicated about Beethoven being at least in some aspects a Romantic, though not in the more formal musical sense. I previously threw in the towel after I read Rosen's book.

But it's true in the wider sense Beethoven not only participated in the Romantic currents of his time in the political, intellectual and emotional aspects: he epitomized those aspects. He WAS the actual embodiment of the solitary, brooding, Promethean world-changer that that generation, largely younger than him, fixated on. The ability of the individual to create his own fate and to unleash energies in society by doing so. And to right the wrongs against the middle and lower classes that had existed for centuries, breaking the shackles the aristocracies had bound society with since the beginning of the partnership between the church and the absolutist kings in the early middle ages. To repeat, Beethoven not only lived this, he symbolized it in his life, his struggle with and triumph over deafness, and his music, for great masses of people.

This is why the Romantic composers who departed from his purely musical concepts nonetheless idolized him throughout the century like a god. And they never did depart from, but explored further, his idea of music as intellectual and emotional personal testament. Though, for example, Mozart may have occasionally expressed similar tendencies and feelings in his music, they were byproducts but not the central theme as they were in Beethoven.