Bach and slurs.

[Enrique]

Did Bach write the slurs? The first number of the St.Matthew Passion is written in 12/8. In an old recording I have, most of the time, the groups of three eighths are heard legatto. But in all modern recordings I have been able to hear, the first is "with a dot above it" (do not know the term in English) and the last two legatto. This has an awful effect on my ear, used as it is to Mengelberg's rendition. I imagine that modern critic has advanced from the time of Mengelberg but that does not make more tolerable for me.

But I digressed a bit from the main point. The autographs we have from Bach are few, if I'm not wrong. Also, there are those who are his wife's work. In fact, I do not know is there is any piece of music from Bach's hand. To put the slurs, then, scholars are based on stylistic considerations? On some autograph that is extant? If it is left to tthe conductor's will, how is it that all of them coincide in what regards the first number of St.Matthew?

[Peter]

Did Bach write the slurs? The first number of the St.Matthew Passion is written in 12/8. In an old recording I have, most of the time, the groups of three eighths are heard legatto. But in all modern recordings I have been able to hear, the first is "with a dot above it" (do not know the term in English) and the last two legatto. This has an awful effect on my ear, used as it is to Mengelberg's rendition. I imagine that modern critic has advanced from the time of Mengelberg but that does not make more tolerable for me.

But I digressed a bit from the main point. The autographs we have from Bach are few, if I'm not wrong. Also, there are those who are his wife's work. In fact, I do not know is there is any piece of music from Bach's hand. To put the slurs, then, scholars are based on stylistic considerations? On some autograph that is extant? If it is left to tthe conductor's will, how is it that all of them coincide in what regards the first number of St.Matthew?

We do have autographs in Bach's hand and very beautiful is his writing - I'll check out your question about the Passion when time allows!

[Peter]

Looking at a copy of the 2nd version dated 1736 there are indeed slurs over the first two of some of the quaver groups but I can't discern any dots. Three principle copyists are identified as occurring frequently in Bach manuscripts, his wife Anna, and two students from the St.Thomas school who assisted Bach, Johann Kuhnau and Christian Meissner.

[Enrique]

Looking at a copy of the 2nd version dated 1736 there are indeed slurs over the first two of some of the quaver groups but I can't discern any dots. Three principle copyists are identified as occurring frequently in Bach manuscripts, his wife Anna, and two students from the St.Thomas school who assisted Bach, Johann Kuhnau and Christian Meissner.

So, I understand what happens (or think I do). Present day musicians, always so punctilious (interpretations in original instruments or copies, et cetera), have to play it exactly as it is written, even in the case when musical sensibility and taste dictate otherwise. There are the Ana Magdalena manuscripts of the 'cello suites, for instance, and you won't see slurs anywhere, except to extend the value of figures. And does any 'cellist nowadays play them verbatim, exactly as it is written? No indeed. Then what is this about adhering exactly to the original manuscripts? Besides, Bach was no Beethoven. This, notated a lot of marks of expression in his scores. This is not the case with Bach, which then gives the interpreter much more freedom.

What is the aim then of all this itching of historical exactitude that has invaded out time? At least, in the concrete case under discussion, I don't see it, even trying hard. I guess I must abide to the superior authority of some directors whether I like it or not. Though I believe it's not so much a matter of personalities but of fashion.

[Peter]

So, I understand what happens (or think I do). Present day musicians, always so punctilious (interpretations in original instruments or copies, et cetera), have to play it exactly as it is written, even in the case when musical sensibility and taste dictate otherwise. There are the Ana Magdalena manuscripts of the 'cello suites, for instance, and you won't see slurs anywhere, except to extend the value of figures. And does any 'cellist nowadays play them verbatim, exactly as it is written? No indeed. Then what is this about adhering exactly to the original manuscripts? Besides, Bach was no Beethoven. This, notated a lot of marks of expression in his scores. This is not the case with Bach, which then gives the interpreter much more freedom.

What is the aim then of all this itching of historical exactitude that has invaded out time? At least, in the concrete case under discussion, I don't see it, even trying hard. I guess I must abide to the superior authority of some directors whether I like it or not. Though I believe it's not so much a matter of personalities but of fashion.

Well you could argue that as Bach's dynamics, articulation and phrasing are not too common, all the more reason to observe them when he does provide them. Looking at some facsimiles of the cantatas, he clearly makes use of the slur so it was not an unknown mark of expression in the Baroque era. It may be the interpretation of these slurs, perhaps with the last note being too clipped that you object to? There is a book that may be of interest if you would like to delve further - 'The compositional process of J.S.Bach : A study of the Autograph scores of the vocal works' by Robert Marshall 1972.

[Enrique]

"Well you could argue that as Bach's dynamics, articulation and phrasing are not too common, all the more reason to observe them when he does provide them".

Good point. I had not seen it from that point of view.

"It may be the interpretation of these slurs, perhaps with the last note being too clipped that you object to?"

Precisely. Perhaps, sometimes one must be flexible enough and adapt oneself. After repeated audition these "cacophonies" will tend to disappear, maybe.