Rare Page: Cantata on the death of Joseph II

[Peter]

The bass recitative and aria from this excellent piece are now available on the rare page.
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/rare.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The bass recitative and aria from this excellent piece are now available on the rare page.
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/rare.html

What do people think of Jose van Dam? I like this singer more than most and was surprised to see his name on the disk considering the bass part is relatively small. He's better than the soprano (which is why I opted not to chose one of these more obvious tracks such as the one borrowed in Fidelio). Still, this music for the bass is absolutely first rate!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-23-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
What do people think of Jose van Dam? I like this singer more than most and was surprised to see his name on the disk considering the bass part is relatively small. He's better than the soprano (which is why I opted not to chose one of these more obvious tracks such as the one borrowed in Fidelio). Still, this music for the bass is absolutely first rate!!

I agree he is very fine, though he's getting on a bit now! I have the CD this selection is taken from and it is excellent with good performances from all - I particularly like Jean Rigby in the Opferlied. The Joseph Cantata is a superb work and an amazing achievement rivaling anything by Mozart at the same age (19) - and this from a Mozart fan!

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by Rod:
What do people think of Jose van Dam? I like this singer more than most and was surprised to see his name on the disk considering the bass part is relatively small. He's better than the soprano (which is why I opted not to chose one of these more obvious tracks such as the one borrowed in Fidelio). Still, this music for the bass is absolutely first rate!!

José van Dam is a very fine musician an singer (there are sometimes great differences beetween to be an artist and a singer). He is the best Leporello (Don Giovanni) I know. I think if he have done this recording it is because he just likes the music of Beethoven ! I heard him singing some Shubert's lieder too, it was really good.
Naturally he is not anymore young, but he still have something to give and is rather intelligent to know WHAT to do now. I have done a Zerlina with him in Belgium some years ago.

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Claudie

[Claudie MICAULT]

I forgot to say I have a nice recording (black vynil of course) with Martina ARROYO... Really good indeed.
I like to sing the part of the soprano from this cantata, but of course the bass aria is the most and I feel pity not to be a man to sing that !!! A real masterpiece....

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The bass recitative and aria from this excellent piece are now available on the rare page.
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/rare.html

It occured to me to mention that the Cantatas companion piece, the Leopold Cantata should follow the Joseph as a 'second act'. The Leopold begins without any real beginning as such, that is, it is following on from something before, and the finale is almost too grand for the scale of the Leopold (which is underrated compared to the J cantata) on its own.

Whilst on this subject, for those who downloaded the Gellert songs it will have become apparent that these too are designed to be performed as a group, some of the individual numbers being too short on their own (appart from no6 which is itself really two songs in one).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-27-2001).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
It occured to me to mention that the Cantatas companion piece, the Leopold Cantata should follow the Joseph as a 'second act'. The Leopold begins without any real beginning as such, that is, it is following on from something before, and the finale is almost too grand for the scale of the Leopold (which is underrated compared to the J cantata) on its own.

An interesting idea but don't you think the Joseph Cantata works as a coherent composition in its own right without the appendage of the Leopold? i.e I agree that the Leopold works better with the Joseph but I don't think the Joseph needs the Leopold! Presumably Beethoven wouldn't have envisaged these pieces being performed on the same occasion?

Whilst on this subject, for those who downloaded the Gellert songs it will have become apparent that these too are designed to be performed as a group, some of the individual numbers being too short on their own (appart from no6 which is itself really two songs in one).

As I mentioned my recording of these songs actually includes extra stanzas that were not set by Beethoven in the first published edition. As the work stands many of the songs are no more than 1 stanza and this does tend to upset the balance particularly with regard to the last song in the group.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

An interesting idea but don't you think the Joseph Cantata works as a coherent composition in its own right without the appendage of the Leopold? i.e I agree that the Leopold works better with the Joseph but I don't think the Joseph needs the Leopold! Presumably Beethoven wouldn't have envisaged these pieces being performed on the same occasion?

I believe Beethoven's long term perspective on these works was that they will be played together, this is the only explanation for the structure of the Leopold. Thus the repeat of 'Joseph is dead' becomes the centre of the whole work. I agree the Joseph works better on its own than the Leopold, but the music performed as 'two acts' is more impressive than the cantatas in isolation in my opninion.

Originally posted by Peter:
As I mentioned my recording of these songs actually includes extra stanzas that were not set by Beethoven in the first published edition. As the work stands many of the songs are no more than 1 stanza and this does tend to upset the balance particularly with regard to the last song in the group.

Do you know why these stanzas were not published. Who was responsible for their inclusion in later additions (I presume)? Bear in mind Beethoven was selective about the sections of the Ode to Joy he made use of. On reflecton, even if all the short songs were extended I would still say play the set as a kind of 'cycle'. The nature of the written material and the dramatic contrasts between the numbers would make it feasible.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-28-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Do you know why these stanzas were not published. Who was responsible for their inclusion in later additions (I presume)? Bear in mind Beethoven was selective about the sections of the Ode to Joy he made use of. On reflecton, even if all the short songs were extended I would still say play the set as a kind of 'cycle'. The nature of the written material and the dramatic contrasts between the numbers would make it feasible.

3 of the songs have one added stanza and 2 have another two on my recording. I'm not sure that they were included in later editions - this is what the sleeve notes say 'For this recording, Genz and Vignoles have reinstated a number of the original verses ommitted by Beethoven in the first printed edition, thereby creating a greater sense of balance between the nominally terse first 5 songs and Busslied'

I agree that the songs should be sung as a cycle. The extensions do I feel make the work as a whole a more substantial piece of around 18 mins. Beethoven must have intended them to be sung as a set rather than individual songs - even with the extra stanza, Gottes Macht und Vorsehung takes under a minute.

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'Man know thyself'