Are we people who neglect Bach?

[Enrique]

If I were to be guided by my experience in my little stay in BRS, I would dare say nobody cares much about Johann Sebastian Bach. Perhaps this is too strong a statement, but his name is not heard very often. Regrettably in a J.S.Bach forum the inverse would be true.

So, to make you guys speak a bit about him I'll make the following question: how well did Beethoven know The Well Tempered Klavier (WTC)? I think to remember that he knew it by heart. Not sure. I do know that it is said he played it before Mozart but, as I do not think Mozart listened to Beethoven play the 48 preludes and fugues, he must have executed just a couple of them. And hence, it is likely that's all Beethoven knew of this work of Bach's, i.e., just what he played then.

If I now add that the two men may have never met for all that I know, then the thread will be about B and Mozart and not about Bach. I now remember it was Neefe who said, praising Beethoven in a letter, he played the preludes and fugues well. So we can completely forget about Mozart. And one thing is clear, assuming Neefe's letter is authentic: the preludes and fugues were known as early as the time of Beethoven's youth. Perhaps as a mere exercise for students. So, two questions:

What was the status of the 48 preludes and fugues for the clavichord and other Bach's music for keyboard instruments in Beethoven's epoch? How well known, how much appreciated as a work of art? And what was Beethoven's degree of familiarity with the old master's keyboard music?

[Quijote]

Good topic Enrique. I'd like to give a fuller answer, but I have to dash off for a conference this afternoon on Franz Schreker and then a concert of his chamber music, and then a dinner (with lots of booze, I hope) with a bunch of dusty old academics.
If nobody answers your points tonight, I'll try and do so sometime tomorrow, OK?
By the way, I teach harmony using Bach's "371" chorales, so I'm as much of a Bach fan as I am of that other fellow who is the theme of this forum. Forgotten his name, German guy, lived in Vienna, had lots of hair and wore great coats!

[Enrique]

Good luck in your dissertation and bon appetit.

[Peter]

Firstly I hope I don't neglect Bach - I begin my daily practice with some Bach preludes and fugues from the'48. Beethoven was reported by Neefe to know them all by heart at the age of 13 and there is no reason to doubt his account. Beethoven also possessed The Art of Fugue as well as a dozen or so more keyboard pieces, but I doubt he was familiar with the Suites or Partitas.

Bach's music was out of fashion by the late 18th century, but it was kept very much alive in academic circles. Neefe was certainly well aware of the value of his work and Beethoven was fortunate in having such a man as his teacher. Baron Von Swieten (whose library in Vienna Beethoven had access to) was a keen admirer of Bach and Handel.

[Enrique]

Yes, I now remember you've made a comment about this habit of yours and, in this sense, you are a man to envy. I dare say I like the first book better than the second. So you've given a step forward to defend Beethoven. I like that. But seriously, how pitiful we shall never know what really the esteem the Master hold Bach in was. In his last years he seems to have inclined towards Haendel. But again all we know are a couple of phrases.

At 13, apart from piano practice, he must have learned harmony and some counterpoint from them. And of course, must have had a lot of fun. For much of Bach's music is just fun. Only that everything, in a composition of his, conspires to make the whole so harmonious that joy would be a more proper name. But who can know what happens within one of those summits of art!

Neefe and Swieten may have admired, I mean admired Bach but I think more as a "music-smith" or artisan, a man of great musical knowledge and skills more than as an artist. As you say it took the work and insight of generations of scholars (and the action of some gifted musicians) to unveil the musical treasure that had been accumulated for us by the old wig.

EDIT: thank you Peter for having let me know Beethoven had Die Kunst der Fuge.

[Chris]

I dare say I like the first book better than the second.

And of course, must have had a lot of fun. For much of Bach's music is just fun.

Really? I don't know too many young students who would agree. In my experience, they find Bach rather dry. As did I at that age. And even now, some of the fugues in the WTC do seem a bit dry. Interesting, enlightening, certainly, but not a lot of fun.

[Enrique]

Really? I don't know too many young students who would agree.

Very funny (cordially said).

In my experience, they find Bach rather dry. As did I at that age. And even now, some of the fugues in the WTC do seem a bit dry. Interesting, enlightening, certainly, but not a lot of fun.

Well ..., you are saying some of the fugues bore you a little. But do tell me you highly enjoy some of the other fugues. Please do not think I am some beato of Bach's. I do not find much fruition in Die Kunst der Fuge, though I recognize the authority of people who knows more than I or, more importantly, has a finer musical taste.

Full stop. There are people who say Bach is difficult, in the same way they say that they don't read Shakespeare because the language is difficult. To this I would reply that either he is very difficult or very easy. Either you were born that way and the music will talk to the heart or, you were not. B's music is quite the opposite, IMO. He might need a learning process. But that of Bach, should be as easy as watching the stars in a clear night.

[Chris]

None of the fugues bore me, but some I think are a little dry. There are many I love, though.

[Enrique]

None of the fugues bore me, but some I think are a little dry. There are many I love, though.

It could not be otherwise.

Quijote: I remember you you promised me to write some lines after that busy day of yours. I will be looking forward to them.

[Peter]

None of the fugues bore me, but some I think are a little dry. There are many I love, though.

Indeed some are - you sometimes get that strange mix of superb prelude and dull fugue! One of the lovliest of the slower fugues is the Ab in Book l. For fun though C# major Book l and c# minor in Book ll or G major book l - difficult though!

One of my favourite fun Bach pieces to play is the Gigue from the French suite no.5 in G.

[Sorrano]

When I was a "young student", learning to play piano, taking lessons, etc., I had an intense dislike of Bach which extended into my adult life for many years. The core of that dislike was that Bach was so hard for me, mastering the fingering and putting left and right hands together. Most of what I disliked were the keyboard works (the organ works being excepted as I did enjoy those a lot) and some of the orchestral works. To me they were dry and boring. It wasn't until fairly recently that I heard a recording of some violin partitas by a performer that loved the music. The passion for it reached me and touched me deeply, as a result my attitude has changed and Bach holds a special place for me.

[Chris]

One of my favourite fun Bach pieces to play is the Gigue from the French suite no.5 in G.

Yes, that's one of mine too. Most of my Baching these days is with the organ works, though.

[Chris]

When I was a "young student", learning to play piano, taking lessons, etc., I had an intense dislike of Bach which extended into my adult life for many years. The core of that dislike was that Bach was so hard for me, mastering the fingering and putting left and right hands together. Most of what I disliked were the keyboard works (the organ works being excepted as I did enjoy those a lot) and some of the orchestral works. To me they were dry and boring. It wasn't until fairly recently that I heard a recording of some violin partitas by a performer that loved the music. The passion for it reached me and touched me deeply, as a result my attitude has changed and Bach holds a special place for me.

I felt the same way, and this is problem I have seen with students as well. When I first started to play the Inventions it seemed like an incredible amount of work for comparatively little payoff. You pull out Fur Elise and good times are had by all, but when you bust out the C major two-part invention...meh. I liked listening to some Bach (especially the Brandenburg concertos), but playing it just seemed difficult and not that much fun. It was actually Glenn Gould who got me interested in playing Bach again - despite his sometimes weird interpretations, he had such incredible precision and clarity, and seemed to take such joy from the mingling lines, and I wanted to play like that (which...I most definitely do not). Gould is not one of my favorite pianists, for Bach or otherwise, but his playing made me want to play Bach again.

[Enrique]

When I was a "young student", learning to play piano, taking lessons, etc., I had an intense dislike of Bach which extended into my adult life for many years. The core of that dislike was that Bach was so hard for me, mastering the fingering and putting left and right hands together. Most of what I disliked were the keyboard works (the organ works being excepted as I did enjoy those a lot) and some of the orchestral works. To me they were dry and boring. It wasn't until fairly recently that I heard a recording of some violin partitas by a performer that loved the music. The passion for it reached me and touched me deeply, as a result my attitude has changed and Bach holds a special place for me.

I do not think I ever heard more than one of the violin partitas. Up to a few months ago when I decided to get a recording of the three. I had of old a recording of some of the instrumental music executed a four hands on an electronic machine, which by the way made the voices very clearly distinguishable, and went crazy with it. I was building a (very primitive) computer and managed to store some scores into its memory, by means of painstaking work. When I thought I had fine-tuned all the details, I made up my mind to load one of the fugues I had heard from the synthesizer into RAM and make the machine play it. And so I did, and a lot of fun I had.

EDIT:
It was the fugue in C minor from book I. The record was Switched-On Bach.

Good topic Enrique. [...]
If nobody answers your points tonight, I'll try and do so sometime tomorrow, OK?

Le tomo la palabra. Although I would rather like to disregard The Well-Tempered Klavier stuff and have you say some words on Bach in general.

[Quijote]

Le tomo la palabra. Although I would rather like to disregard The Well-Tempered Klavier stuff and have you say some words on Bach in general.

Dear Enrique, I'm sorry I didn't come back to you sooner, but I've been very busy these last few days with the Schreker conferences and concerts, plus one very late dinner and bar session with dusty old academics (not all old and dusty, though!) that left me drained of energy, not forgetting a terrible hangover. Que borrachin soy yo! Vale, Enrique, dejo al lado el WTC...
I too hope I don't neglect Bach, in fact I can't as I use his chorales for teaching harmony and counterpoint, though it's true I neglect him on this forum!
What can I tell you? Bach, as Pablo Casals once said, is a volcano, and it is through the 'cello that I first came to this Master. No, that is not entirely true, I first came to him via my 'O Level' in music (an exam taken at the age of 15 or 16 in British schools as was the system back then many years ago) where we had to study a movement from one of his works (I can't recall which, it had some double counterpoint) and we then had to do a few elementary counterpoint exercises based on that. I thought it was great. When my teacher got me playing the 'cello suites, I became hooked, but never as 'hooked' as with Beethoven.
About Beethoven and Bach then: I was always surprised that LvB never sung the praises of Bach to the extent I would have expected of him. We know from the literature that he praised Handel enormously (certainly in his last few months when he received a 'complete edition' of his works as a gift from some patron or other), but he also considered Cherubini to be "the greatest living composer". That has always perplexed me, to be frank. Clearly, when I read that Beethoven said that, I hurried off to listen to some Cherubini but couldn't quite figure out what he saw (heard) in him. So I began to wonder if I should take Beethoven's pronouncements on composers 'with a pinch of salt' (tomarse algo con reservas).
In any case, whilst I do tend to keep certain of Bach's output for teaching purposes, when it comes to pure listening pleasure I have to place in top position the 'cello suites, the violin partitas/sonatas, the cantats that I know, the B minor Mass and two Passions, and the Brandenburgs. I confess that I neglect the organ works as I have problems with this instrument (sorry Sorrano and Chris) because of its timbre and my school upbringing.