Op. 47, "The Bridgetower" sonata!

[euphony131]

George Augustus Polgreen Bridgetower -- the virtuoso violinist collarborated with the Master for Op. 47 -- now wrongly known as the "Keurtzer." Should be the "Bridgetower!" I'm sure the Master forgives him by now for whatever George had said about a certain woman in a bar!!!

See:
http://www.madaboutbeethoven.com/pages/people_and_places/people_patrons/ people_patrons_bridgetower.htm

Actually, the link wrongly cites Bridgetower as having a West Indian father. He was really half African (West Africa?). Alle Menchen Verden Bruder!

Here's another link:
http://www.fuguemasters.com/beethove.html#Kreutzer

So what do the rest of you think? Do you think a campaign should be started to re-name the sonata? Poor George -- he ended up in the poorhouse unknown and unloved, while Keurtzer, who said the sonata was "unintelligible" and never took to B's music, went on to undeserved fame.

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Euphony - I had to adjust your first link as it made the page too wide! Peter.

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-20-2001).]

[Peter]

Since Bridgetower had been a guest of the Guicciardi's and Count Von Deym's, I wonder if the offending remark could have concerned Josephine Brunsvik or Giulietta Guicciardi? -whoever Bridgetower insulted in Beethoven's eyes, it was enough for Beethoven to wish not to have the name associated with his sonata and that should be enough for us as well regardless of the merits of Kreutzer!



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'Man know thyself'

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:
Since Bridgetower had been a guest of the Guicciardi's and Count Von Deym's, I wonder if the offending remark could have concerned Josephine Brunsvik or Giulietta Guicciardi?

Peter,

That's an interesting theory and one I had not heard. Do you think it may have taken place at one of the lady's houses after the "Bridgetower" sonata premiere? Rather than at a bar as some say? Hmmmm. George was apparently quite a lady's man. Maybe he was just used to a more risque way of referring to ladies than the Master?

On the other hand -- given George's "playboy" reputation, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened he actually "bedded down" one of the afore-mentioned women. Hence the Master's wrath. It could all just have been a matter of jealousy.

Bridgetower: "Maestro, I direct your attention to that one. Yes...her. She's quite capable in the sack."

Beethoven: "What!?!? To hell with you! That is Josephine you are speaking of! I've changed my mind! No dedication!"

All in all though, I still think the sonata should be known as the Bridgetower. I can't believe the Master in his final years still held on to the grudge.

BRIDGETOWER AND BEETHOVEN FOREVER!

PS -- All things considered, Bridgetower may have gotten off lightly compared to other "victims" of B's temper. Did not B. once throw or try to throw a chair at a Prince? And did he not once throw a full-fledged colonel down a set of stairs?

PPS -- I read somewhere that most if not all the violin cadenzas of that piece were written by Bridgetower. What do you think? And what's your favorite mvt.?

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 10-20-2001).]

[Peter]

Josephine was married at the time to Count Deym so I don't think we can fairly accuse her of having jumped into bed with Bridgetower! He may however have made disparaging remarks about her or perhaps her sister Therese to Beethoven which caused the offence. For Beethoven to have reacted as he did suggests to me that Bridgetower had made insulting remarks or suggestions about a lady close to Beethoven rather than just a mere aquaintance. We'll never know what the exact cause was or whether Beethoven held on to his 'grudge' but we do know he decided to dedicate the work to Kreutzer and that he didn't change his mind on this - we have no right now to posthumously rename the work 'Bridgetower' especially as we are ignorant of the true circumstances.

I'm not aware of Beethoven ever including a single note by someone else in his compositions (except with variations) so I don't see why he would have had need of Bridgetower to write for him! My favourite movement is the 1st - it's so original.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


I'm not aware of Beethoven ever including a single note by someone else in his compositions.

I would say this is true, appart from the direct quote from Handel's concerto grosso in C minor (Grave) in the opening movement of Op70/2. Though this is just my impression. I'll upload the (short) piece in question on Monday (accessible at this chain) for others to assess.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:

For Beethoven to have reacted as he did suggests to me that Bridgetower had made insulting remarks or suggestions about a lady close to Beethoven rather than just a mere aquaintance...
...My favourite movement is the 1st - it's so original.

Yeah, I agree. It must have been a lady pretty close to B. It's been said that Beethoven leaped up from the piano during the sonata's premiere to embrace George after he duplicated perfectly one of B's piano passages on violin. The Master apparently had great respect and enthusiasm for the violinist. They hung out all the time together during work on the sonata. It's just so sad how things turned out.

And yes, that first mvt. may well be my fave too.

B was notorious for his temper, and for keeping long-standing grudges, his list of "hated" patrons and princes and fellow musicians is long. However, I still believe the Master forgive everyone of their slights towards the end of his life. How could a bitter curmudgeon compose such transcendent works as the Late Quartets?! Impossible! My feeling is that he was simply too pre-occupied with composing and keeping death at bay to think about Bridgetower. (We all know how "unkempt" and "eccentric" the Master was at the end.) This is different from not thinking about George because he hated him. Do you agree?

Also, Op. 47 was composed in 1803, yes? Wasn't this the time when B's deafness was really getting bad? After their falling-out, it was probably B.'s concern for his hearing that helped put George into the "forgotten" category.

PS -- I'm conjecturing of course. But it's fascinating nevertheless -- this little segment of B's history. Plus, I've always wanted to know more about Bridgetower and his relationship with the Master.



[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 10-20-2001).]

[Joy]

PS -- All things considered, Bridgetower may have gotten off lightly compared to other "victims" of B's temper. Did not B. once throw or try to throw a chair at a Prince? And did he not once throw a full-fledged colonel down a set of stairs?

Yes, as the story goes about the Prince. Haven't heard the one about the Colonel though?! And let's not forget that incident about throwing his dinner of eggs at a waiter!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rod:
I would say this is true, appart from the direct quote from Handel's concerto grosso in C minor (Grave) in the opening movement of Op70/2. Though this is just my impression. I'll upload the (short) piece in question on Monday (accessible at this chain) for others to assess.

True to my word I ave uploaded the aforementioned track:
Op6nr8.mp3

Its from H's Op6 Concerti, No8. Performed by the Handel & Haydn Society/Hogwood, Decca 2CD set . First class recording and music that on its own got me into Handel. Enjoy!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-22-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
True to my word I ave uploaded the aforementioned track:
Op6nr8.mp3

Its from H's Op6 Concerti, No8. Performed by the Handel & Haydn Society/Hogwood, Decca 2CD set . First class recording and music that on its own got me into Handel. Enjoy!

I have this CD and will listen out for the plagiarism!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have this CD and will listen out for the plagiarism!

You could have easily downloaded the 1 minute track and told me now!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-22-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
You could have easily downloaded the 1 minute track and told me now!

I could have done if I'd chosen to keep a pupil waiting at the front door!
There is indeed a similarity between the 2 but I don't think it is a 'direct quote' - I think it is probably coincidental rather than deliberate. The similarity between the theme of the Eroica and Mozart's Bastien und Bastienne is more striking but I doubt Beethoven knew that work.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I could have done if I'd chosen to keep a pupil waiting at the front door!
There is indeed a similarity between the 2 but I don't think it is a 'direct quote' - I think it is probably coincidental rather than deliberate. The similarity between the theme of the Eroica and Mozart's Bastien und Bastienne is more striking but I doubt Beethoven knew that work.

I might agree if there wasn't that extremely baroque sounding trio in the 3rd movement. This is beyond doubt a conscious reference to the earlier age. If the theme in question with the mp3 track was composed without influence from H, yet it sounds so very similar, there must be 100's of cases of suspected Handel 'borrowing' that could now be called into question!?

I was a little dissappointed at the lack of 'assessments', but then it occured to me that probably only you and I have even heard op70/2(!!), a masterpiece with or without Handel's help, at least as good as the 'Ghost'. Yet a name is everything!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I might agree if there wasn't that extremely baroque sounding trio in the 3rd movement. This is beyond doubt a conscious reference to the earlier age. If the theme in question with the mp3 track was composed without influence from H, yet it sounds so very similar, there must be 100's of cases of suspected Handel 'borrowing' that could now be called into question!?

I was a little dissappointed at the lack of 'assessments', but then it occured to me that probably only you and I have even heard op70/2(!!), a masterpiece with or without Handel's help, at least as good as the 'Ghost'. Yet a name is everything!!

Well the whole of the 3rd mov trio doesn't sound Baroque, only those opening string bars. I'm not denying that B was influenced by the Baroque, we've discussed this before and both agreed that it is in the late works that this is most apparent - yet I wouldn't describe this influence as plagiarism. The Heiliger Dankgesang from Op.132 is a far more conscious reference to an age even earlier than Handel, but it is Beethoven through and through. You are more the Handel expert than I, but wasn't it common practice for Baroque composers to simply lift whole passages and themes? This is not the case in the examples you have given with regard to Beethoven.

I agree with your assessment of Op.70/2 - a simple title seems to damage the reputation of paired works - Op.27 is another example.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well the whole of the 3rd mov trio doesn't sound Baroque, only those opening string bars. I'm not denying that B was influenced by the Baroque, we've discussed this before and both agreed that it is in the late works that this is most apparent - yet I wouldn't describe this influence as plagiarism.

The string bars are what I am talking about, and they would sound a hell of a lot more baroque performed 'authentic'. These passages are unique in Beethoven's entire output. I never used the word 'plagiarism' in this case, I would use the word 'borrowed'. That is B adapted the theme and shifted the key etc. But still for me they are too similar for there not to be a connection.

Originally posted by Peter:

The Heiliger Dankgesang from Op.132 is a far more conscious reference to an age even earlier than Handel, but it is Beethoven through and through. You are more the Handel expert than I, but wasn't it common practice for Baroque composers to simply lift whole passages and themes? This is not the case in the examples you have given with regard to Beethoven.

Handel 'lifted' his own stuff, but it seems Handel adapted others material. I say adapted because I have never heard a single piece of Baroque music not written by H that sounds quite like H! Thus whatever the origin of the theme, H's personal stamp still predominates by the time he's finished with it. H alone is singled out but they all did it, JS Bach included as I have said before. I always ask my self when reading H allegedly used a theme from Composer X: where did Composer X get the theme from? Researchers conveniently stop at this point.

Originally posted by Peter:

I agree with your assessment of Op.70/2 - a simple title seems to damage the reputation of paired works - Op.27 is another example.

Publishers like titles, titles sell better as the public remember them, but my principle grievance is that the word is forever connected with the piece and you cannot ignore it even if you try - which is what I meant when I said elsewhere the music looses some of its independance thanks to such picture painting.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Solution - name them after people, a la "Keurtzer" and "Waldstein." Problem solved. If only I were absolute ruler of the Earth, we'd have no more problems...