A passage from Brahms' fourth symphony.

[Enrique]

There is a passage, in the 3rd movement, beginning at bar 168, marked F in the score. Here the orchestra calms down and what follows is full of serenity. I think this is one of those magical moments in the symphonies of Brahms. Have you ever noticed how extraordinary these bars are? In the following link, it is at 2:45:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhmJr-LOYNE

[Peter]

Yes well that is the trio section of the Scherzo - magical indeed.

[Enrique]

Yes well that is the trio section of the Scherzo - magical indeed.

I congratulate myself to be once again of your same opinion, although I see you're a courteous poster, as becomes an administrator. Also, it's good to know something more about that work (shame on me).

[Peter]

I congratulate myself to be once again of your same opinion, although I see you're a courteous poster, as becomes an administrator. Also, it's good to know something more about that work (shame on me).

Well I don't think shame comes into it! The most incredible movement of Brahms 4 has to be the variation finale where he demonstrates his mastery of the form. Incidentally this symphony along with most of Brahms not only bored Tchaikovsky but angered him as well - the two however got on socially.

[Enrique]

...[Brahms and Tchaikowsky] the two however got on socially.

Yes, the Finale. You are quite right. But the first movement, when the horns, and this happens several times in it, vociferate those tremendous cries (crotchet with dot, 1/16, 1/16, crochet triplet) ...

Thanks, thanks. How good to know about these intimacies! I only knew they cordially hated each other. I can't help loving some of Tchaikowsky's works, being honest, what I most know, the symphonies. But do you know the Rococo Variations for 'cello?

[Peter]

Yes, the Finale. You are quite right. But the first movement, when the horns, and this happens several times in it, vociferate those tremendous cries (crotchet with dot, 1/16, 1/16, crochet triplet) ...

Thanks, thanks. How good to know about these intimacies! I only knew they cordially hated each other. I can't help loving some of Tchaikowsky's works, being honest, what I most know, the symphonies. But do you know the Rococo Variations for 'cello?

Yes I know the Tchaikovsky Rococo variations and they are very enjoyable - I'd also recommend his 4 orchestral suites, although the most popular no.4 known as 'Mozartiana' is my least favourite - no.3 is the finest. Of the early symphonies, no.2 I like best. Perhaps you know his 2nd piano concerto, not of course as popular as the 1st, but some excellent music.

Back to Brahms - I have to be in the right season to listen to his symphonies - No.2 is summer, no.3 autumn and no.4 winter. I suppose no.1 is half winter then spring!.

[Enrique]

Yes I know the Tchaikovsky Rococo variations and they are very enjoyable - I'd also recommend his 4 orchestral suites, although the most popular no.4 known as 'Mozartiana' is my least favourite - no.3 is the finest. Of the early symphonies, no.2 I like best. Perhaps you know his 2nd piano concerto, not of course as popular as the 1st, but some excellent music.

Back to Brahms - I have to be in the right season to listen to his symphonies - No.2 is summer, no.3 autumn and no.4 winter. I suppose no.1 is half winter then spring!.

You are right again in that parallelism. Now, no.1 is electrifying, then less electrifying. In the 1st mvt, last measures, the woodwinds leave the low strings "uncovered", playing the tonic. What an effect!

I listened to the variations in a research by Pierre Fournier and then the master gave me a recording as a present (not Fournier, but my cello master). The Mozartiana I once was ranked among a hundred (!) because I called to the radio. Symphony no.2 must be the Little Russia, I guess ... pretty. I'm listening to the 2nd concerto and don't understand why it is not in the "canonical" repertoire. I did not know it.

[gprengel]

To me the most "magic" moment of this great Brahms symphony has always been this blossoming up of tenderness at 3:04 of the 2nd movement in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnV1anRPMDI
But the outstanding movement as a whole of course is the final movement.

Peter, I liked your characterisation of Brahms' symphony (No.2 is summer, no.3 autumn and no.4 winter,... no.1 is half winter then spring!). This really fits!

But I was a bit astonished about your assessment regarding the 2nd symphony of Tchaikowsky. To me the 1st symphony ("winterdreams") is much, much more fascinating, especially because of the ingenious 2nd movement and the Finale.

[Enrique]

To me the most "magic" moment of this great Brahms symphony has always been this blossoming up of tenderness at 3:04 of the 2nd movement in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnV1anRPMDI
But the outstanding movement as a whole of course is the final movement.

The second movement is a delicious sunset, in the winter (!) of life. I would like it to never end.

[Peter]

To me the most "magic" moment of this great Brahms symphony has always been this blossoming up of tenderness at 3:04 of the 2nd movement in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnV1anRPMDI
But the outstanding movement as a whole of course is the final movement.

Peter, I liked your characterisation of Brahms' symphony (No.2 is summer, no.3 autumn and no.4 winter,... no.1 is half winter then spring!). This really fits!

But I was a bit astonished about your assessment regarding the 2nd symphony of Tchaikowsky. To me the 1st symphony ("winterdreams") is much, much more fascinating, especially because of the ingenious 2nd movement and the Finale.

Yes I also like the 1st but coincidentally it is the same movements that you refer to in the first that I like in the second, except for the ghastly gong crash in the finale! The last movement of the 3rd is also interesting, but for me the greatest of his symphonies is the 4th rather than the 6th which though remarkable is too much like an exercise in self pity for my taste, especially the finale.

[gprengel]

And for me, Peter, the greatest of Tschaikowskies symphonies is the 5th! How I love the slow movement with the Romantic horn solo and the awesome Finale :-) But of course the 4th is also wonderful, especially the 1st and 2nd movement ...

[Sorrano]

And for me, Peter, the greatest of Tschaikowskies symphonies is the 5th! How I love the slow movement with the Romantic horn solo and the awesome Finale :-) But of course the 4th is also wonderful, especially the 1st and 2nd movement ...

I'm with you on this one! But then Tchaikowsky can do no wrong by me.

[Enrique]

I am with the 6th, although at times it touches insanity. It has been said Tchaikowsky liked Mozart. How opposite to this one is that show of inner feelings. The last bars seem as if somebody were revolving a knife into one's stomach. From where it follows I am a masoquist. But here's an example where the 4th mov is greater than the first in stature (it seems the late XIX century put the cart before the horse).

[Peter]

And for me, Peter, the greatest of Tschaikowskies symphonies is the 5th! How I love the slow movement with the Romantic horn solo and the awesome Finale :-) But of course the 4th is also wonderful, especially the 1st and 2nd movement ...

Tchaikovsky had a love-hate relationship with the 5th and he actually agreed with Brahms about the finale being poor! I quite like the finale but I prefer the 1st and 2nd movements. I agree with your selections for the 4th, the finale strikes me as rather bombastic and doesn't live up to the greatness of the 1st movt in my opinion.

[Roehre]

And for me, Peter, the greatest of Tschaikowskies symphonies is the 5th! How I love the slow movement with the Romantic horn solo and the awesome Finale :-)

That makes at least three of us then