Why first movements are generally the finest,

[Enrique]

if they are at all, in symphonies (and other cyclical compositions like sonatas, quartets, et cetera). There is the third movement, generally a minuetto. This, by its very definition, is merriment music or at least a dance form. It's succesor, the scherzo, shares this character by historical reasons. Think of the third movement in the Seventh. The Fifth may be an exception to the rule, by its relationship with the first movement.

Of course I'm speaking about XVIII-XIX centuries music. Then we have the fourth movement. In this, the composer wishes to let the audiece go with a sense of happiness, free of problems. And free of problems this section of the composition generally is. There is the emotional side and the technical one. About the latter, Mozart's 4th movement in the 41th and Brahms Finale in the fourth symphony are more complex even than there respective first movements.

This leaves us with only two movements. The 2nd can be very beautiful, full of lirycism and written in the most varied forms. As for the first, it's almost always written in sonata form. And what is this sonata form? For music written after Bach, it is one of the most time-proven musical forms ever tried in Western music. Its outstanding feature is the presence of two themes (an example of a monothematic movement in modern times may be found in Schumman's piano concerto). One of the sons of Bach, Haydn and Mozart, among others, elevated it to the rank of perfection. And I think that is the reason why the first movement is almost invariably the most accomplished part of a symphony. Besides, in those of the XIX century, this is the place where light fights darkness, and the dramatic setting here presented won't resolve until the last movement, where the forces evil are overthrown and victory is declared. So, the precense of tragedy makes the first movement more profound than the rest of the symphony.

[Peter]

As for the first, it's almost always written in sonata form. And what is this sonata form? For music written after Bach, it is one of the most time-proven musical forms ever tried in Western music. Its outstanding feature is the presence of two themes (an example of a monothematic movement in modern times may be found in Schumman's piano concerto). One of the sons of Bach, Haydn and Mozart, among others, elevated it to the rank of perfection. And I think that is the reason why the first movement is almost invariably the most accomplished part of a symphony. Besides, in those of the XIX century, this is the place where light fights darkness, and the dramatic setting here presented won't resolve until the last movement, where the forces evil are overthrown and victory is declared. So, the precense of tragedy makes the first movement more profound than the rest of the symphony.

Except you'd be hard pushed to find Haydn and Mozart first movements that conform precisely to text book Sonata form which was in itself applied retrospectively in the 1830s by theoreticians! Haydn was particularly experimental often using one theme (monothematic) and sometimes writing a slow first movement.

[Enrique]

Very interesting your remark, Peter. It makes me remember Walter Piston's Harmony, where he stresses the facts that harmony is not a set of rules to be applied by composers, but a record of their common practice. In this respect, musicology parallels grammar, where modern grammarians continuously stress the fact that their discipline does not rule language but that it is the other way around.

Could you single out some of those Haydn works? I think Haydn has been unfairly relegated to a second plane by our time, and I particularly like some of his symphonies and sonatas. Don't you?

[Sorrano]

Could you single out some of those Haydn works? I think Haydn has been unfairly relegated to a second plane by our time, and I particularly like some of his symphonies and sonatas. Don't you?

Do not forget the quartets and other chamber music, the oratorios, and the masses. Haydn was a first rate composer and deserves that recognition.

[Enrique]

I won't.

EDIT: I've at home an LP, Alban Berg, Camera Concerto and Songs (1907) and op. 2. Very well. One day I opened the sleeve and inside I found ... Joseph Haydn, The World on the Moon! I'll give it a listening now, because you made me remember it.

[Peter]

Firstly I agree with you about the merits of Haydn who is one of the greatest of composers in terms of his originality and unconventionality with regard to orchestration and structure. You asked for examples and these are really numerous so here are just a few from the symphonies:

Symphony No. 21 Adagio first movt with unusual structure.

Symphony No 22 in E flat major 'The Philosopher'
1st movt Adagio

Symphony no.45 in F# minor has a first movement that can be explained structurally in terms of sonata form, but it departs from the standard model in a number of ways (just before the recapitulation, for example, new material is introduced, which might have been used as the second subject in the exposition in a more conventional work). Also, the exposition moves to C-sharp minor, the dominant minor, rather than the more usual relative major.

Symphony Nos 94, 103 & 104 have a monothematic exposition in the first movt as do many of his sonatas and quartets.

[Enrique]

Stay in tune and wait for my commentaries, for I won't miss listening to them, if youtube has them (any ways, there are ways to download plenty of haydn 's symphonies, if not the entire collection).

[Peter]

Stay in tune and wait for my commentaries, for I won't miss listening to them, if youtube has them (any ways, there are ways to download plenty of haydn 's symphonies, if not the entire collection).

Other Haydn symphonies I find interesting are
7, 39, most of the 40s and 50s, 60, 64, 70, 77 (2nd movt), 78 (1st movt), 82-88 and of course 90+

[Enrique]

Firstly I agree with you about the merits of Haydn who is one of the greatest of composers in terms of his originality and unconventionality with regard to orchestration and structure. You asked for examples and these are really numerous so here are just a few from the symphonies:

Symphony No. 21 Adagio first movt with unusual structure.

Symphony No 22 in E flat major 'The Philosopher'
1st movt Adagio

Symphony no.45 in F# minor has a first movement that can be explained structurally in terms of sonata form, but it departs from the standard model in a number of ways (just before the recapitulation, for example, new material is introduced, which might have been used as the second subject in the exposition in a more conventional work). Also, the exposition moves to C-sharp minor, the dominant minor, rather than the more usual relative major.

Symphony Nos 94, 103 & 104 have a monothematic exposition in the first movt as do many of his sonatas and quartets.

No. 21: Well ... if you take this movement to be not sonata form at all, then he just switched the second with the first movement! As Beethoven did with the 2nd and 3rd in the Ninth.

No. 22: There is an ostinato in the low string in the old way. It's surprinsing how it organizes the whole structure. I think I'm listening to the first number in the Credo of the Mass in B minor.

No. 45: I've listened to this one many times. I think is one of his pop symphonies. But it deserves its fame, IMO. I've got carried away by the 1st mov. It's truely wonderful.

Of course I have listened to 94 many times, but I did not remember the first movement. In the second there is the famous theme that looks like a children's song. DO,DO,MI,MI,SOL,SOL,... Look what somebody has to say about the first movement: "Haydn renounces to great contrasts inside the movements: the two indispensable ones in sonata form are present, but sometimes the second derives from the first and almost never has an opposite character as we will encounter in Beethoven, who finds precisely in this principle his greater force". (Well, you spoke just about the exposition). I find I've never listened with a critical ear in regard to musical form. I'll make of it an exercise in the future.

No. 103, 104: It's surprising. What other symphonies get by opposing two themes, one energetic, forceful, the other passive and graceful, in these is obtained by sheer dynamics, as a result of either the orchestration or dynamics indications (pp, p, ...). By the way, when did Haydn begin to use dynamic indications in this symphonies? I doubt he used them from the very beginning, although only some of his manuscripts must be extant now.

[gprengel]

Enrique, Id' like to encourage you to listen to my favourite Haydn work - the 99th symphony. It has a fantastic first movement with a great development section (lot of counterpoint). Also the Adagio is great!

Other great symphonys: 26 (Adagio!) 31, 44 (mov.2 and 4!), 45, 53, 60,67, 83, 86, 88, 92, 94, 98,100-104

[Enrique]

gprengel, I'm listening to the 1st mov. as I write to you. What do you want me to say? It's wonderful! It's for those who proclaim Haydn's music to be healthy: No Sir. There is pathos in his music.