Appasionata

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Joy:
how about Bach's Toccata in D minor for Organ? Real 'Phantom of the Opera' music!

The toccata and fugue in d minor is much more horrorific than the apassionata only because of the instruments that were chosen for their composition (just take into account the 1st and 3rd movements, the 2nd is gracious music and completely out of the general mood of the sonata). I think that if we could play the apassionata in an organ, it would be as horrifying as the toccata and fugue, or even better.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I think Czerny referred to this sonata as 'Ocean waves on a stormy night and a distant cry for help' - now whether or not we agree, what is important is that the performer has an idea of what the music is saying in his own mind.

Fair enough, but good instrumental music does not speak in words and pictures. One shouldn't be required to paint a mental picture before the music can be played, the music speaks for itself. Once you attribute words and images, even mentally, the work loses something of its independance. Instrumental pieces ideally should never be named. We now can never think of op57 without the word 'passion' immediately entering our minds beyond our control.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Once you attribute words and images, even mentally, the work loses something of its independance.

I don't really agree - I think having a mental image is important otherwise you only have a mechanical rendering of the notes. This is surely what is meant by interpretation and imagination - it is a personal thing and not set in stone.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Interesting that you mention op110, for I too have mentioned this piece in the same context. However I used op110 as an example of a 'positive' climactic finish, where the music gives the impression of ascending, as compared to op57's 'negative' coda, where the music descends. The effect is powerful but deliberately unnerving in the minor key, the last two chords should be played sharp not sloppy like one often hears. Yet the effect produced is not a depressing one, B is playing with elemental forces here, and the sheer energy unleashed leaves one feeling empowered. How many other Beethoven works end in such a manner as this? Only the 'Moonlight' I think.

I don't agree that simply because a run of notes descends, the music is negative; similarly, ascending notes don't necesarily offer optimism. It's the minor tonality which is literally the key here. Even the Pathetique has that miniature drama of descending notes to the final minor chord. If that run were played up the keyboard, it still sounds gloomy - I just played it that way, and the mood is not changed by the path taken to the final chord. At least to my ears.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I don't agree that simply because a run of notes descends, the music is negative; similarly, ascending notes don't necesarily offer optimism. It's the minor tonality which is literally the key here.

True, but the the context of op57 and 110 the tonality is supported by the respective tendency for the music to give the impression of falling or rising in the closing sections. You cannot deny in op110 that towards the end the theme ascends in a triumphal manner. It is difficult to imagine this being done so effectively if the notes were in the major key, but desending. Such a case would be possible perhaps for more tender music, but not the music of a dramatic nature we are discussing here.

Originally posted by PDG:

Even the Pathetique has that miniature drama of descending notes to the final minor chord. If that run were played up the keyboard, it still sounds gloomy - I just played it that way, and the mood is not changed by the path taken to the final chord. At least to my ears.

Then why do you think Beethoven decided to play them descending?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't really agree - I think having a mental image is important otherwise you only have a mechanical rendering of the notes. This is surely what is meant by interpretation and imagination - it is a personal thing and not set in stone.

I depends that you mean by a mental image. While you play you should of course be imagining the music being played in your mind as you go, but mental pictures of images and words will get you nowhere. This may explain the proliferation of crap Beethoven performances I have been subjected to over the years on disk or in the hall - the players were daydreaming instead of consentrating on the notes.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I depends that you mean by a mental image. While you play you should of course be imagining the music being played in your mind as you go, but mental pictures of images and words will get you nowhere. This may explain the proliferation of crap Beethoven performances I have been subjected to over the years on disk or in the hall - the players were daydreaming instead of consentrating on the notes.

From the teaching point of view it is important to stimulate a pupil's imagination - is this passage angry, serene, tragic? etc.. what is the mood the composer intends? In the learning phase, words are very helpful in conveying rhythm, phrasing and emotional content. Obviously in performance when interpretation has hopefully been sorted out you must be focused on the notes.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by PDG:
Please elaborate, Rod. It ends in minor, but as a sonata climax, I think only Op.110 equals it for breath-taking power and authoratative finality.

I agree totally....


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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
From the teaching point of view it is important to stimulate a pupil's imagination - is this passage angry, serene, tragic? etc.. what is the mood the composer intends? In the learning phase, words are very helpful in conveying rhythm, phrasing and emotional content.

Well this is obvious, and not what I was thinking about. I'm thinking about when people ascribe a story or pictoral image to a piece of music rather than just indicating the mood or tempo. A pianist friend of mine could see virtually a whole novel in the andante of op28!! It is not constructive to go looking for stories and hidden meanings.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Then why do you think Beethoven decided to play them descending?

Op.110 is in major!! Ascending notes certainly suggest triumphalism more than descending ones, but if you play a run in A flat minor to a final A flat minor chord for this sonata, the majesty of the piece is seriously blunted.

Re your above question, LvB clearly wanted a muted effect at the finish of Op.57, a feeling of some unease within a composition which seems to contain more high drama than a full-length opera. The Serioso Quartet, 1st movement, also achieves this remarkable feat.

The final chord of Op.57 suggests to me the closing of a coffin lid on a piece glimpsed, experienced and not quite understood even when it is over. We can only try and prepare ourselves better next time.

Or something like that.....

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Op.110 is in major!!

You were talking about the Pathetique. I'm not persuing this point any further.

Originally posted by PDG:

Re your above question, LvB clearly wanted a muted effect at the finish of Op.57, a feeling of some unease within a composition which seems to contain more high drama than a full-length opera.

It (op57) ends in a 'uneasy' frenzy to my ears. Most opera can scarcely be regarded as serious music on my opinion!!

Originally posted by PDG:

The final chord of Op.57 suggests to me the closing of a coffin lid on a piece glimpsed, experienced and not quite understood even when it is over. We can only try and prepare ourselves better next time.

Or something like that.....

My advice was not to ascribe a pictoral scene to the music! The closing two chords should be short, and bad tempered. Usually they are played sustained from my experience, losing the tension of the moment. I don't know what the score says but if it says anything to the contrary of my recommendation....its a copyist's error!!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 10-16-2001).]

[PDG]

I messed up your quote in my post, but you were citing Op.110 for its triumphal climax. I suggest purely stylistic, musical reasons lay behind Opp. 13, 27/2 and 57 ALL ending with a downward, minor piano run.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I messed up your quote in my post, but you were citing Op.110 for its triumphal climax. I suggest purely stylistic, musical reasons lay behind Opp. 13, 27/2 and 57 ALL ending with a downward, minor piano run.

You virtually prove my point for me. I cited op110 as an example of the use of an upward trend in the music as a method of enhancing the effect of this 'positive' musical emotion. Hardly a radical position. The reasons for the use of a downward trend in the music to enhance a more 'negative' emotion are similarly obvious. N'est-ce pas?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't really agree - I think having a mental image is important otherwise you only have a mechanical rendering of the notes. This is surely what is meant by interpretation and imagination - it is a personal thing and not set in stone.

It was exactly the way of teaching of Alfred CORTOT (who first conducted the 9th in France and was also playing a lot BEETHOVEN even if he his now better known for his interpretations of CHOPIN, SCHUMANN or DEDUSSY). He asked to his pupils to write a comment about the music they would play and to know perfectly everything about the composer.



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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
It was exactly the way of teaching of Alfred CORTOT (who first conducted the 9th in France and was also playing a lot BEETHOVEN even if he his now better known for his interpretations of CHOPIN, SCHUMANN or DEDUSSY). He asked to his pupils to write a comment about the music they would play and to know perfectly everything about the composer.

Yes From 1907 to 1917 Cortot was a professor of piano at the Paris Conservatoire
and was responsible for interpretation classes which were to become legendary - stimulating the imagination through images, words, dance and singing are vital. None of the arts exists in isolation and I think it's important to know the literature, painting etc.. of a culture as well as the music. We know that literature and philosophy had an enormous influence on Beethoven, so to really understand him it is important to have knowledge of these as well.

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'Man know thyself'