How do they know?

[Enrique]

If you watch this (BWV1052R, 1st mov., Isabelle Faust playing), you'll notice the tempo is rather fast.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz4gYHZ1-UA[/YOUTUBE]

And in general, in most modern performances of fast movements in works of the common practice period, tempi are very fast, as compared with those of an earlier time. How do they they know BWV1052 was played that fast in Bach's days (if ever played)?

[Peter]

Quantz gives some very detailed information regarding 18th century performance practice including tempi which is defined in terms of pulse and time signature. Based on his ideas, allegro would be crotchet=120.

[Enrique]

That's very intersting information. And why, then, did scholars suspect Beethoven's metronomic indications for his symphonies, which were made at the begining of the 19th century?

[Roehre]

That's very intersting information. And why, then, did scholars suspect Beethoven's metronomic indications for his symphonies, which were made at the begining of the 19th century?

For a starter, there were strong reasons to assume B's metronome wasn't working correctly.

[Enrique]

However, Rene Leibowitz made a recording of the complete set sticking to Beethoven's metronome indications

[Fidelio]

...and along came Jonathan Del Mar

[Peter]

For a starter, there were strong reasons to assume B's metronome wasn't working correctly.

I'm not sure what the 'reasons' were aside from the fact that a later age considered them too fast and difficult to play? Beethoven went to a lot of trouble over the metronome markings and it would be extraordinary that a musician of his calibre wouldn't notice any inaccuracies. You can judge metronome tempi pretty accurately with some experience - it isn't difficult to work out 60 for example. With regards to the 9th symphony, surely it would have been noticed at the rehearsals let alone the first performance?

[Roehre]

I'm not sure what the 'reasons' were aside from the fact that a later age considered them too fast and difficult to play? Beethoven went to a lot of trouble over the metronome markings and it would be extraordinary that a musician of his calibre wouldn't notice any inaccuracies. You can judge metronome tempi pretty accurately with some experience - it isn't difficult to work out 60 for example.

I agree, but here we have to take in account B's grip of maths as well as his (obviously) relatively inexperience in applying them.

With regards to the 9th symphony, surely it would have been noticed at the rehearsals let alone the first performance?

At the time of the premiere the metronome markings AFAIK weren't written down in the autograph score yet (the markings 108-120 in pencil were added later). It is the printed score used in later performances in which the markings appeared for the first time - the only Beethoven symphony of which the very first edition already shows these markings (as at the time of the publication of 1-8 the metronome didn't exist yet )

[Enrique]

The title to this thread should have been "I do not like modern
performances". But of course, what some persons like, others dislike,
although aesthetics does exists.
What I see is that making the tempi too fast takes away
intelligibility from the music. There are so many subtle things occurring
all at the same time in a single piece of music! Crochet = 120 for
Allegro in the common practice period is simply too much. But above
all, it should be the performer's judgment, in his attempt to interpret
the composer's will, that should determine the exact tempo. And that judgment, should be guided by his heart, not history.

Look what Sir Collins Davis had to say about this matter: "The way they play Baroque music is unspeakable. It's entirely theoretical. Most don't play the music because it's moving, they play it to grind out theories about bows, gut strings, old instruments and phrasing. I've heard Bach specially mangled, as though he has no emotional content."

He is speaking about historically informed performances.

[Peter]

The title to this thread should have been "I do not like modern
performances". But of course, what some persons like, others dislike,
although aesthetics does exists.
What I see is that making the tempi too fast takes away
intelligibility from the music. There are so many subtle things occurring
all at the same time in a single piece of music! Crochet = 120 for
Allegro in the common practice period is simply too much. But above
all, it should be the performer's judgment, in his attempt to interpret
the composer's will, that should determine the exact tempo. And that judgment, should be guided by his heart, not history.

Look what Sir Collins Davis had to say about this matter: "The way they play Baroque music is unspeakable. It's entirely theoretical. Most don't play the music because it's moving, they play it to grind out theories about bows, gut strings, old instruments and phrasing. I've heard Bach specially mangled, as though he has no emotional content."

He is speaking about historically informed performances.

I agree with much of that - although a lot can be learnt from HIP there are those who are slavishly dogmatic about it - mentioning no names RN!!
Any intelligent musician should be able to determine a tempo that is right for their interpretation and we have also to consider that different venues will affect the issue.

[Michael]

I agree with much of that - although a lot can be learnt from HIP there are those who are slavishly dogmatic about it - mentioning no names RN!!
Any intelligent musician should be able to determine a tempo that is right for their interpretation and we have also to consider that different venues will affect the issue.

Roger that!

[Sorrano]

Roger that!

Nor would I mention or hint of any names, either.

[Peter]

Nor would I mention or hint of any names, either.

A Ton of clues abounding here!

[Michael]

That would make a good ring tone.

[Joy]

Roger that!

Roger who??